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WHO is buying all of this stuff and why are they not being held responsible?

The city has been so corrupt for so long that scrap yards buy stolen metal with impunity.

For a long time, the state issued a form that could be used to create a replacement title for a car with no records check. Crooked tow truck drivers were grabbing people's cars off the street, pencil whipping the form, and selling the cars as scrap for cash. I think the state finally stopped providing that form.

One of the local TV stations did an investigation a few years ago, with the cooperation of U-Haul. U-Haul was interested because people were breaking into their truck storage lots and stealing the heavy cast aluminum loading ramps off the trucks. The TV station undercover guy drove into the scrap yard with a ramp, with "Property of U-Haul Corp" cast right into the metal, pointed out the lettering to the yard clerk. The clerk said "don't worry, it will be melted down tonight". When questioned, the yard owner blamed a "rogue underling" for buying obviously stolen metal.

When you mention street intersections without stop signs, my first thought is scrappers have nabbed the signs and posts.

Scrappers hit the Dodge fountain on the riverfront last year, $400,000 damage.

scrappers and other vandals have not only stripped away some of the copper necessary to the operation of the fountain, they've also damaged the electrical panel, restrooms and offices used by performers and organizers of scheduled events at the popular riverfront destination.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/detroit/scrappers-to-blame-for-no-water-flowing-from-the-fountain-in-hart-plaza

The scrappers are now going after the roof trusses and rebar in the Packard plant. Some sections have entirely lost their top floor. At the rate they are going, in another 20 years, the plant will probably be leveled.

Don't forget this handy resource:

http://detroiturbex.com/content/industry/packard/firestatus/

Don't forget this handy resource:

Very neat pix. Thanks.

Scrappers set the fires intentionally. The heat weakens and breaks up the concrete, making it easier to extract the rebar.

Hi
Interesting insights all, both the Packard era and the current situation. The logistics in that era certainly would have argued against a move to Willow Run unless there were overwhelming advantages to do so.

On the topic of why Macauley, Gilman et al decided to outsource body production to Briggs beginning with the '41 Clipper. I recall reading in SIA that the top stamping which stretches from the upper cowl, windshield frame all the way to rear panel head of the trunk opening was the largest single piece stamping then bringing produced. Packard didn't have stamping capabilities for such a large unit. As the plants were increasingly taken up with war materiel production, that too spoke for body production outsourcing.

Given the active role that Briggs played in the hasty Clipper development, it would have been a surprise if they didn't get the lion's share of it's production body work.

Steve

I recall reading in SIA that the top stamping which stretches from the upper cowl, windshield frame all the way to rear panel head of the trunk opening was the largest single piece stamping then bringing produced. Packard didn't have stamping capabilities for such a large unit.

That would tend to support my theory that, instead of making the investment in presses and a building large enough to house them, Packard punted the entire issue to Briggs.

As the plants were increasingly taken up with war materiel production, that too spoke for body production outsourcing.

I doubt anyone at that time figured the war would run forever, yet Packard made a forever decision by transferring nearly all it's bodybuilding equipment to Briggs, without documentation, so, when Packard was forced to bring bodybuilding back in house, they couldn't reclaim the equipment.

The logistics in that era certainly would have argued against a move to Willow Run unless there were overwhelming advantages to do so.

The largest advantage of W-R was how cheaply it could be bought. The government spent over $100M building it, and Kaiser bought it for $15M. Kaiser did have other options: the existing Graham-Paige assembly plant on W Warren in Dearborn and the G-P body plant on Michigan Ave in Wayne, but Henry Kaiser thought big, so the old Graham plants were sold in 47.

Kaiser had most of the stampings for W-R produced by Fleetwings in Philly, because Fleetwings was Kaiser owned. When Kaiser built an additional stamping plant, he put it in Shadyside Ohio (on the eastern edge of Ohio, across the river from Wheeling W VA), because he could get incentives for building there. Then a few of the presses were removed from W-R, reinstalled in Shadyside and the stampings trucked to W-R (I have a photo of a skid of firewalls going in a truck at Shadyside)

When it came to engine supplies for Kaiser, facility selection amounted to what was available, which was a mothballed Continental plant on Jefferson in Detroit, a longer drive to W-R than from EGB. Continental in Muskegon couldn't provide enough engine block castings, so, instead of going to another foundry around Detroit, Kaiser bought the foundry of the bankrupt Round Oak Stove Co in Dowagiac, MI, a 150 mile pull to W-R

Kaiser-Fraizer was a logistical disaster, but the W-R plant itself was only a part of it.

As for the employees, the employers didn't seem too concerned about the ease of their commute. As another person mentioned, it was a 45-60 minute drive from Detroit to Utica for the J-47/powertrain workers. In one of my Kaiser books, there is a diagram of the locations that W-R's workforce came from. While most came from the Ypsilanti area, and the company HR people groused about the lack of experienced autoworkers, some people drove astounding distances to get UAW wages, especially in 1946-53 when there were few to no freeways going in the right direction.

All of this history is really interesting, I enjoy this topic just for that. My grandfather was a machinist for Buick in Detroit and later in Flint. Makes me wish he'd been around long enough for me to ask about things like this.

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Yes, Mr. Pushbutton. As someone who grew up in Detroit in the glory years all this stuff is heartbreaking. That first house I lived in on the east side until I was about 10? Someone burned it to the ground a couple of years ago. I cannot tell you how many other places I knew that are now either gone or in ruins. Much of it just senseless anarchy. Driving along 6-Mile Road between Woodward and Livernois last year had me in tears. I just couldn't look at it anymore. This is not just poverty and lack of jobs... this is a new kind madness on a city-wide scale.

It was also heartbreaking to go visit my other old neighborhood of Boston Blvd. off of Woodward. Abandoned and crumbling mansions. I was sickened just to think of the Packards I personally knew were still in a couple of those old garages as recently as the 1980s. And people standing out in front of liquor stores on Woodward... with dazed looks... turning in circles...staring up at the sky. Drive past the next day and they're STILL there! What's up with that?

I have a life-long friend who is a retired artist who refuses to leave. He sends me incredible stories... reports that sound like the end of the world. Like a couple years ago, people working at a company he visited came out at the end of the day to discover most of the cars in the parking lot were MISSING THEIR CATALYTIC CONVERTERS! Stolen in broad daylight! They found a guy with a station wagon FULL of catalytic converters. The only other things he had were a baloney sandwich, a portable Sawzall and a hydraulic foorjack! WHO was buying this stuff?

And I have mentioned in another posting about how one of my family's old properties was broken into. Scrappers or dopers or winos took two (2) brand-new early 1950s Dodge Red-Ram Hemi engines with GM 6-71 blowers stored there from my boat. BRAND NEW. Never used. GONE. Supposedly sold for scrap according to local alley characters. Now what scrap yard could honestly buy these engines and NOT know they were stolen??? So this isn't just the bummy dirtbags down on the street level that need to shoulder the blame for all this nightmare. How much do you figure the "recycler" scrap yard got when they re-sold my Red-Ram engines?

This is madness and greed on a massive scale. By the way... the house on THAT property was also burned to the ground. So were my family's old stores on East Jefferson. So am I surprised at the craziness that has taken place at the Packard Plant on EGB? No. Not al all. Just profoundly, deeply saddened.

All of this history is really interesting, I enjoy this topic just for that.

Alrighty, tho not Packard specific, this does concern Willow Run, to a degree.

Kaiser-Frazer was a joint venture between Henry Kaiser and Graham-Paige, of which Joe Frazer was President. Kaiser providing money, Frazer providing Graham-Paige facilities and equipment.

Willow Run was initialy leased from the government. The lease called for progressively rising rent. For the first couple years, the rent on W-R was a paltry $300,000/yr, then it would step up for the next couple years, then step up again.

Meanwhile, the government needed a warehouse to hold the large inventory of war surplus machine tools that it wanted to auction off. Kaiser offered the Graham plant in Dearborn, which was not needed because of the lease of W-R, for $300,000/yr. The government figured that was a good deal and took a two year lease. Bottom line, K-F had two years in W-R with the rent paid on W-R offset by the rent the government paid on the Graham plant...so W-R was effectively free.

When the government vacated the Graham plant, it was snapped up by Chrysler, who happily rolled DeSotos out of it through the 50s. When DeSoto was dropped, the plant became the home of the Imperial through 63, then was used for decades as a parts warehouse.

Part of the plant is still standing at 8505 W Warren in Dearborn.

Photo: 1960, when the plant was reassigned to Imperial production. 1M sq ft, all production areas on ground floor, contained paint shop and assembly line.

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Packard was burying their heads in the sand by ballywhooing the East Grand Boulevard square footage over Willow Run.
The days of plants like EGB were roundly over for large scale production. Buick kept going in a few plants like EGB for years, AMC, in their own cash-poor way did so out of necessity, but the war really changed how large scale production happened.
I had a friend who graduated college in 1953 with an engineering degree. He interviewed at two companies, Packard and Chrysler. There was a bit of a buzz going around town at the time that Packard was "really on its way back" and that the new guy (Nance) was bringing in a lot of fresh talent.
Stan interviewed at Packard first, went to the offices on EGB, filled out some papers in the Personnel department, and was given directions on how to walk to the part of the plant where the person he would report to was stationed. He told me about walking down this dark hallway, a flickering fluorescent light every so often, plaster falling, laying in little piles on the floor--all in all it appeared to him that the building was not particularly well cared for and that maintenance was optional. His interview was fine, he got along with the interviewer and had OK "vibes" about that part of the interview and left.
A few days later he interviewed at Chrysler in Highland Park, very similar experience in the people/opportunity area. His biggest impression: the condition of the facilities--everything at Chrysler was clean, well lit, orderly and looking like a prosperous business.
He went home and mulled over the two offers. The Packard offer was pretty close to Chrysler in terms of salary, and would have had a little more "fun" factor to the type of engineering work than Chrysler. He selected Chrysler based mainly on the condition of the facilities--that spoke to him about the cash reserves of the company and the longevity of the job.
Time proved him correct.

While we are on the topic of EGB, I was invited earlier this year to represent the Packard community on a panel to select the winning entries for "reanimate the ruins" a competition for architects/students to re-imagine the potential uses for (what is left of) the Packard Plant. We met and selected the winners last Thursday. I was the only non-architect on the panel. My basic feeling is that the plant is a goner, and needs to just go away. Historically everything that made it Packard is gone, and the wild-wild-west scrapping and exposure to the elements has weakened the structure to the point where I don't see it feasible, but hey, what do I know?
Senior Sexy-voice from South America thinks it can happen, so I helped with/confused this process with my historical context. Heard a lot of what they call "Archi-babble".
Here is a link to the competition results, enjoy.
In the interest of full disclosure, they bought a good deal of very good beer afterwards.

http://parallelprojections.com/rtr-results