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I've heard two reasons why cars, primarily pre-1936 or so, had a roof insert as opposed to being one solid piece of steel. First, technology hadn't been developed to create a single sheet of metal that large. Second, cost saving.

Also, were roof inserts prone to leaking? And when were the last cars to use an roof insert?

kind regards
Garrett Meadows

Availability of steel sheet in a suitable size may have been a factor but another and perhaps more important factor is the cost factor. Using 1934 as an example, there were at least 6 different roof sizes and for some the total production was only 200-300 cars and less than 4000 closed cars in total production, so how can you possibly amortize the cost of dies successfully across such a limited production even if some 32 and 33 models, also very low production, shared the same or similar roof? Also consider that during the depression, labor to weld/solder panels was extremely cheap and making expensive investment in presses and stamping dies was not in the cards except for very high volume manufacturers.

Senior bodied Packards (Super Eights, Twelves) continued with wood body construction thru 1938 for the Super Eight and 1939 for the Twelve and those still had roof inserts. For the higher volume "production cars" (juniors) roof inserts were gone by 1938, perhaps 1937.

Were they prone to leak? Only as they aged and exposure to the elements and sunlight gradually took their toll on the material. I doubt many owners bothered to use the materials sold to help prolong their lifespan. My 34 still had it's original insert when I bought it in 1963; it didn't leak as you might define by a stream of water but portions of the headliner became damp in a heavy rain. I redid the insert about 1975 - dry as a bone since though it doesn't see a lot of harsh exposure to the elements. By far the biggest problem with roof inserts is that if leaks are allowed to continue long enough, the supporting wood structure will be destroyed and replacing that is a HUGE cost to do properly - often enough to put you upside down in a closed car unless it's a custom body or very rare model.

Check out these posts about the roof inserts:

https://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11417&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=10

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Packard-V12-Club-sedan-Club-sedan-V12-club-sedan-outstanding-driver-/271558652370?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f3a2831d2&item=271558652370&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

First, thank you for sharing your encyclopedic knowledge about Packards. You are definitely becoming my go-to person for all things Packard.

Second, what prompted me to ask my question in the first place is a 1939 Packard v-12 Club sedan currently listed on ebay. The featured photo of the car is taken from above, clearly showing the roof. What I initially thought was perhaps a shadow or reflection of some sort on the roof is actually an insert. Although, until reading your message, I thought 1939 was rather late for cars to still have roof inserts.

As an aside, last year I was at Hot August Nights here in Reno and stopped to look at a 1935 Ford businessman's coupe magnificently restored with a roof insert. I stopped to ask the owner why the roof had an insert. Do you know he didn't have a clue. He said he bought the car just to bring it to Hot August Nights and wasn't familiar with specifics of the car. I thought it must be nice to have that kind of money.

BTW, what are those inserts made of?

I was going to buy a copy of "Packard: A History of the Motor Car and Company." Good lawd! Even on ebay copies are $90 and up.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge with me. I appreciate it.

kind regards
Garrett Meadows

Thank you for the link. Very informative.
kind regards
Garrett Meadows

Looks like fresh stamping on an old patent plate.

(o{}o)

Typical roof construction was a series of lateral wooden slats, then a layer of heavy woven "chicken wire" which also served as the radio antenna, then a layer of cotton batting, and finally the external cover which was a rubberized and rubber coating fabric with an external grain pattern, sold today as "Colonial Long Grain" or Colonial Short Grain".

There are pictures of the roof construction in the 1934 Salesman's Data Book, I'll scan later and edit.

Left-click to enlarge for legibility.

Attach file:

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Speaking of money well-spent, should you keep up with an interest in Packards, the money spent on a nice copy of the Automobile Quarterly "Packard" book, edited by B.R. Kimes, will be a rewarding purchase. I think that it might join a list of best books you ever spent money on. Many of my grad school text books cost about the same and delivered two percent of the pleasure and twenty percent of the information contained in this Packard "bible." Other than the car itself, I count my copy as one of my smartest Packard purchases.

BTW, look for a good price on the internet. I got mine from an Amazon Prime dealer, in perfect but slightly used condition, shipping included for about eighty bucks. It's a hefty book, full of information, with several authors who are still members of the Packard Club. If nothing else, ask for one from Santa. I'm sure glad I did not have to wait.

Not that it has any affect of authenticity or value, but the body on that eBay 39 Twelve noted above is, based on the theft-proof number, a leftover 1938 Twelve/Super 8 body. No surprise there, after a booming 1937 Packard no doubt had high expectations for 1938 Twelve sales but the mini-recession of 1938 put a damper on that, nearly 1/3 of the 39 Twelves I have data on have leftover 1938 bodies.

Excellent advice. Yes, I rather thought "Packard: A History of the Motor Car and the Company" might be an must-have for a Packard enthusiast. So, I'm going to start shopping both Amazon and ebay.

BTW, have you seen the tome "The Fall of the Packard Motor Car Company"? It got excellent Amazon reviews.

kind regards
Garrett Meadows