Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Glad things looking up. As long as the hold coil is keeping the plunger out, lower voltage is not an issue at term 3 as you are taking the reading at a point somewhere toward the midpoint of two coils in series.

The relay contact should not be closed with it out of the car so there is either something sticky holding, a bind of some type, the spring is weak, or some residual magnetism in the core which may be a stretch. Checking one I have, it snaps right out.

There are ways to demagnetize if that is reason but not sure of best approach in this case--relay cores don't normally magnetize. Maybe Bob1951 would have some ideas.

Check the other causes and then would try in car first and see if once in motion it causes a problem. It may bounce open with movement which would be great. If it does not & continues to stick would be an issue only if solenoid binds or for some reason prevents that ground out or kill contact inside to not open. Then it would cause engine to stall if it stays closed.

I actually think the relay sticking is magnetism, because that is what it feels like when I release it. But, there is no "residual" because once I release it, it will not re-stick (for lack of a better term). Nothing sticky on the points (I have very lightly filed them) and the spring seems OK. It is almost like it is electric, with the field broken when I open the points, but not until I open them. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense with no power going to the relay.

Anyway, once I put it back together and get it off the jack stands, if it needs more attantion, it will probably be under the hood. Looking forward to the test drive.

Partial Success!

Installed the Solenoid last night. Grounded the governor and the solenoid to engage the pawl. Once in I could feel resistance to pulling the solenoid, so I assumed this is properly engaged.
Hooked everything up and again grounded the solenoid to confirm no "machine gunning" or other unwanted noises.

A Short Test Drive:
At about 25MPH, the indicator light comes on and the OD engages upon releasing the pedal. Indicator light goes out and OD is operational!

Not quite there:
I still have the issue of the buzzing noise at the point at which the OD light comes on and until the OD shift is completed. It is very quite and really hard to tell if it is mechanical or electric. I am hoping it is electric. I noted two other issues: (1) I hear the OD disengage as I slow down, but I must be almost at a stop. Slowing down to even 5 MPH does not actuate the ground-out circuit. (2) generally I am in first when the OD engagement is indicated. One time while in second, upon reaching the engagement speed, the indicator light came on and backing the throttle DID NOT engage the OD and, of course, the light remained on. The shift did occur after a couple more attempts and all was good. This also occurred a few weeks ago, just before the OD died, but the shift would not complete at all. Does the shift generally take longer in second gear?

I assume the noise in am looking for can come from a few places: On achieving engagement speed, the points in the governor close, the actuating contacts in the relay close and terminal 4 gets power, which powers the pull in winding and the indicator light. I guess the governor points could be making poor contact, but I don't think I would hear a buzzing noise from that (?). Outside the car, the solenoid made no unusual noises, but I do wonder if restricting the travel of the plunger, which I think is what happens while the solenoid is pushing on the pawl being held by the balk ring, could cause this noise to come from the solenoid. However, it does NOT happen with the solenoid in place, the car stationary and the governor grounded. It seems like electrically this should be the same situation.

At the time the governor closes the circuit, the ground out contacts in the second relay open, which results in power to terminal 6. It is these contacts that I have previously noted were closed upon pulling the relay (no power to it at all). I am wondering if these points could be the source of the noise. If they do not open when required, would this ground-out terminal 6 and set up the machine gunning noise? Or, can these points themselves be somehow buzzing as they try to open but fail?

Is there a way to test these components (or by-pass them) while driving?

If the noise is not electrical, then only the mechanics is left. When the solenoid pushes on the pawl, and the pawl pushes on the balk ring, waiting for it to line up, what exactly does the balk ring ride on? Can this action force it to contact the Sun gear, so that I am hearing that contact and it is the source of the buzzing noise as the teeth engage the balk ring? That seems like the only mechanical possibility. Once the shift is made, there are no unusual noises and everything feels fine.

Good news on the progress. Have a look at these 4 service counselors. Each has an article on some aspect that might have something to do with your findings or answer a question. There is one on the second speed engagement but don't know if conditions are applicable in yours. One of your symptoms almost sounds as if the governor is dropping out at wrong speed but a snippet in another article on electromatic cautions against trying to adjust it in field. Believe all are available on site for download.
1941 Vol 15-5
1943 Vol 17-17
1944 Vol 18-3
1947 Vol 21-14

HH56 - These are good sources of data. I have found a few before, but some of these are new to me. I am curious about a statement in Vol. 17-17 that says the No. 6 circuit momentarily grounds the ignition as the pawl engages, the points having been momentarily closed during the plunger travel. This takes the load off the drive shaft so the pawl can engage.
The purpose of this is not clear to me. I understand the reason for grounding the ignition on kickdown activation to drop out of OD, but I thought that releasing the pedal achieves the mechanical relief on the drivetrain so that balk ring can line up with the pawl to allow engaging the OD. If circuit 6 was not activating, would this be a potential source of my buzzing issue? Is there a way to actually test the activation of circuit 6?
I am not sure it would be related, but this is the relay (ground out relay) for which the contacts stay engaged after power is shut off. I think at the point that I note the unusual noise, they should be closed in any case, so it doesn't seem like this contributes to the condition.

That is a confusing statement. I really think they meant to say dis-engage. As you mention, torque reduction on engagement is by letting off the gas. The solenoid is constructed so that the ground out points can't close until the solenoid is well into the out or engaged position. By that time pawl is already into the gear, pull in coil is very strong so any torque reduction wouldn't help that much.

I don't know of a reliable way to test. If you tried bypassing and brought a wire inside to manually connect, the timing would have to be impeccable. Short it at the exact instant it tried to engage to test the way it is written and of course, connected a few milliseconds too long and the engine would die--same on the other side dropping out.

Have you been able to nail it down as to solenoid buzzing or relay box buzzing.

I have been following this thread with interest as I just went through the installation of an R11 in my 38. I came up with my own wiring system which seems very simple. I ran a wire from the governor to a ON-OFF-MOMENTARY toggle switch under the dash then from the switch to the relay which only has 3 terminals (power in ,ground and switched power out). I then ran a wire from the distributor side of the coil to the momentary portion of the toggle switch so that the momentary position grounds through the gov. In operation the toggle is in the ON position and lifting off the gas allows shifting into OD. When I want to disengage the OD I flip the toggle to off and just blip the momentary and the car downshifts to regular. I never bothered to hook up an OD light because I know that as soon as I go over 20 MPH I can engage the OD. Also I didn't want to bother with installing a kickdown switch under the gas pedal.

--- momentary to coil

--- Gov (grnd when over 20 MPH)

--- Relay

It may not be

Good suggestion and certainly a simple way of doing and might be a good option to test as it eliminates almost everything stock except solenoid and OD mechanicals.

Use the 6v Bosch relay mentioned on the FAQ with output going to both 3 and 4 on the solenoid & disconnect all original wires. The switch should be available at most good electronic stores-- even a miniature would work. Using as described, if solenoid is OK you have overdrive. If no buzzing, problem is relay box or before, if buzz then solenoid.

The source of the buzzing is a mystery. It is quite quiet, and the car also is quite quiet. With the windows up or down, I can not discern the direction of the noise from inside the cab. And I can not tell whether it is electrical or mechanical.
The mechanic who replaced the solenoid to get the OD working felt it was "somewhere inside the overdrive (and you don't want to take that apart)". At that time, it occurred only intermittently. It now occurs whenever a shift into OD is done.
The only time it occurs is when the solenoid is activated, pushing the pawl onto the balk ring, which has not yet rotated to allow engagement. Once engaged, no noise, and everything works as it should.
I am leaning toward it being electrical because the mechanic was right, I don't want to take the OD apart.
I think I could get much closer to the answer by putting the car on jackstands and performing the shift to OD. From underneath, I could probably tell if it was from the OD unit or the solenoid.
But, I haven't been immortal since my twenties, so I am not anxious to do this - maybe as a last resort.
I am thinking about this: Disconnect all four leads to the solenoid and the OD lead to the governor. Run a tap switch from the governor (or maybe just ground?) directly to the solenoid terminal 4. Get up to about 20 MPH and hit the switch. Since I wouldn't have terminal 3 powered, I would not actually allow the shift. If I hear the noise, then it is either the solenoid or something in the overdrove mechanics, if I don't, then it must be electric.
I seems to me that there should be no likely damage to the system by doing this, I think I am just duplicating the sequence after the governor closes the points and before I release the accelerator to shift into OD. I don't think there should be any issues of overloading the solenoid or the governor, as long as I do the engagement for only a short while.

I wouldn't do it just that way. Without 3 connected, you'd have the machine gunning and slamming the pawl in and out can't be good. You need power to 4 not a ground so that wouldn't work. The current draw is pretty high so an ordinary switch to carry it might be hard to come by. If you do anything along those lines, would suggest the method Phils38cpe mentioned with the relay and small switch. That's simple, small cost in components and pretty much would give an answer. You might not even need to worry about the ground out circuit for the test--just let off on gas to disengage when you turn the switch off