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'55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#1
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Bob E.
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Posted on: 2018/7/23 21:28
Bob
1955 Packard Patrician
Sapphire Blue
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#2
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jfrom@kanter
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If pressure was low before rebuild you should have diagnosed cause upon disassembly, did not see any conclusions. Currently you have low oil pressure, what was reading at 1500 rpm. Did you check with mechanical gauge??


In our shop we do not take the precautions you have and never had any engine failures/problems. We lube all engine parts with an oil/STP mixture as assembled, tappets/cam brushed with cam break-in fluid, just use regular oil for first 30 minutes then drain and replace examining used oil for metal particles, fuel system not flushed unless car has been sitting for years or evidence of sediment, carb not primed.


Engine cranked with starter and ususally fires up within 3-4 revolutions. After 10-15 seconds the lifters are full and engine runs silently. IF THERE IS ANY CONSTANT OR LOUD/NOTICEABLE NOISE THE ENGINE IS SHUT DOWN AND DIAGNOSED.



The noise you have is an indication of a problem, it may be the torque converter nuts are loose on the front side of the flywheel, elusive sound in the area you describe. But it may be lifter to cam noise, did you check that lifters rotate freely in lifter bores, this causes almost immediate lifter/cam failure.

Thanks
James From
Kanter Auto Product

Posted on: 2018/7/24 9:16
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#3
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64avanti
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A missing oil gallery plug could explain the low pressure & lifter noise? More common than you would think. If the oil gauge is accurate, does the pressure rise to acceptable with more RPM & how many revs?

Posted on: 2018/7/24 16:48
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#4
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Bob E.
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THanks for the comments so far. I'm sure there will be more to come (hopefully). In the meantime, I will crank it up this weekend with an external oil pressure gauge to better track pressure and pressure vs rpm.

When I put the new lifters in, they seem to slide in easily and had the ability to rotate. Not sure about how to easily check an missing oil gallery plug?

From James' comments, I should drain the break in oil, check it out, and then fill will regular oil (i was thinking of using Rotella).


I'll report back this weekend.

thx
-Bob

Posted on: 2018/7/25 11:33
Bob
1955 Packard Patrician
Sapphire Blue
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#5
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Bob E.
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Here is some more info.

After being gone a week, I started it up again to warm the engine then drained the break in oil. Also drained the water in the radiator and filled with ~50:50. To see what was in the oil, I drained it through a white t-shirt and you can see what was left. Nothing really solid, almost graphite like in texture. Fished around in the old oil with a magnet and nothing significant was there. Also stuck the rod with a magnet on it inside the oil pan with similar results.

Filled with 5 qts of Rotella T4 15W-40 and for kicks took off the rocker arm covers to check them out. Oil was evident throughout but I was shocked to find a valve keeper laying in the passenger rocker arm! During assembly I realized that I somehow lost one so I bought some more and replace some of them with the new ones. I checked carefully and every valve still has 2 keepers, so somehow the lost keeper was 'lost' inside the spring and worked its way out.....

Started it back up with an OTC brand oil gauge Tee-d to the existing pressure sender unit. Engine runs great. Oil never got close to L and temp was solid.

Here are some oil pressure vs rpm measurements:

RPM Oil Press - psi
450 30
700 50
900 50
1000 57
1500 62
2000 68
2500 72
3000 78

Gauge on dash looks good to at low rpm so I feel good that this is working properly.

One lingering problem is the transmission. Recall that the driveshaft is removed. When I started it today, there was the metallic gear 'meshing' sound. I moved the shifter from Park to Neutral and it got a little quieter. When I moved it to any other gears (D, L, R) there was no objectionable sound. As I came back to N, it started again. It sounds just like a standard transmission car when trying to get it in gear when the engine is not quite at the right speed for the clutch engagement. Sort of repetitive teeth to teeth hitting sound. I very slowly moved from D to N and the sound went away and was gone from N to P.

Any thoughts on this? the car hasn't been driven in 2 years. My next plan is to connect the driveshaft and take the car around the block but don't want to do any damage if there is something I need to do first with the Ultramatic

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Posted on: 2018/7/31 22:36
Bob
1955 Packard Patrician
Sapphire Blue
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#6
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Bob E.
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I've been playing around a little more with the engine, trying to get a smooth idle etc. Along with that, I did a comparison of oil pressure from my OTC gauge (plumbed with the existing oil pressure sender) against the dash gauge.

The reason I get spooked is that at idle (~500rpm) the dash gauge barely reads above L. The OTC gauge shows about ~30psi there which seems like that is plenty at idle.

Is this normal for your car?


Separately, there is this metallic almost hollow knocking sound that occurs at the crankshaft speed. It speeds up and becomes less noticeable as rpm is increased and most pronounced when rpms are reduced to idle. (Oil is at F, and good pressure). The sound seems to be coming from inside the engine as I can hear it more clearly through the oil fill tube when I take the breather cap off. I have an audio recording of it which I can send but that file type won't upload here. I seem to remember it being there before I had the engine rebuilt. Any thoughts?

thanks again for reading and all your comments.

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Posted on: 2018/8/4 12:57
Bob
1955 Packard Patrician
Sapphire Blue
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#7
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John
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Hollow knocking sounds from inside the engine are almost never a good thing!

Posted on: 2018/8/4 14:56
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#8
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Bob E.
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A few more bits from today's troubleshooting:

The frequency of the noise coincides with the light pulse on my timing light. I removed the engine oil dipstick and the mechanical fuel pump and noise was still there (used the electric pump I installed to power car). Also, the noise is not evident when I start the engine cold. It starts to appear after 30 sec - 1 min as the engine warms. Noise seems to fade as rpm is increased from 450rpm @ idle to higher, but returns noticeably as return to idle (I attribute to the engine noise drowning out this other noise). When I put my hand on the deep end of the oil pan, I believe that I can feel something when I hear the noise, but it is a subtle difference.

Going to try to focus my efforts to pinpoint the source of the noise before tearing into the timing chain cover etc.

-Bob

Posted on: 2018/8/5 18:43
Bob
1955 Packard Patrician
Sapphire Blue
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#9
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R H
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Piston slap. Or rod bearing.

Posted on: 2018/8/6 1:44
Riki
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Re: '55 engine back to life! Mostly worked...
#10
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64avanti
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"The frequency of the noise coincides with the light pulse on my timing light"
This would indicate Cam speed, not crank speed. I have had flakey lifters do this before.
When Packard built Merlin engines, they were test run, disassemble & inspected, then re assembled & run again.
What a great way to spend the day!
Best wishes.

Posted on: 2018/8/6 8:40
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