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Cli55er: Don't let Peter get to you with his backhanded insults.

Let me tell you about Peter's 38 V12 Packard he owns. I think that he paid a whole $50.00 for it. Probably over the years has put very little into it to bring it up to show quality.

He may have bragged to you about going to Pebble Beach, but let me tell if he entered his Packard he walked away with no trophies for his car. I know that Peter is a member of the CCCA, but in some circles of the CCCA is considered a PIA.

How do I know this because several years ago I attended a CCCA ConCours down in Florida, and talked to a past president of the CCCA about Mr. Hartmann. He doesn't have the money to compete with the big boys that are members of CCCA.

John F. Shireman

thanks for the back up! ;0)

and here is a PERFECT example of what i am talking about.

car is exactly what i would do. ;0)

CLICK HERE

Welcome to the condescending world of Peter Hartmann!

cli55er

dont let that guy bug you man. part of driving an old car is repairing it to get it to running condition. its no fun at all starting with a car that only needs paint and and ign. points to be useable. I dont know about your finances i dont care, and niether should any one else. I know I dont have the money to start off with a finished car either way, so a work in progress is what Ive got and enjoy.

John is correct in SOME of his comments. I have done nothing to my Packard "to put it into show quality".

John points out that there are now "big boys" in the CCCA who are VERY unhappy with those of us who wrote its operating rules, and enjoyed it for so many years as a CAR CLUB.

I do not fault those who have hundreds of thousands of dollars to burn, turn automobiles into costume jewelry, so they can park them on some lawn at an expensive hotel, and sit there and smile at each other. Free country.

Those of us who actually like our big Packards for what they are, even if we had the money to turn them into costume jewelry, dont.

Once you restore a car to 100 point standards, you can forget about driving it - five miles on a public highway would effectively ruin it from further competition.

I dont know where John got the idea I paid fifty bucks for my Packard Twelve, or where he got the idea I was, or could ever be invited to Pebble Beach! They are VERY "exclusive" at Pebble Beach. I hear they "nick" the public over a hundred bucks just to walk in the gate !

My kind of car - meaning the kind that actually gets enjoyed as a car.. taking them out and driving the heck out of them, are not be welcome at Pebble Beach. So, wrong again, John.

If I HAD fifty bucks in 1955, I could have purchased a much nicer, more "classic", more valuable Packard Twelve. But I didnt have fifty bucks.

Just as a side-note, seventy five bucks would have gotten me a MINT MINT MINT '35 V-12 LeBaron Town Car - much more elegant "classic" lines then the less desireable semi streamlined lines of my '38. But again, I only had twenty five bucks, so I did the best I could. So, wrong again, John.

I do participate in any car shows I can get into, which means "quite a few" - some ALMOST as neato and snobby as Pebble Beach. Again, Pebble Beach is for what John correctly calls the "big boys". Right about that one, John.

Still quite a few of us from the early days of the CCCA, and we have a lot of fun. We are the types that enjoy the big Packards for what they are, not because they have any "snob value" - wasnt too long ago we were laughed at by the general public for saving these things.

Sharing tech. info. to keep our cars on the road. Helping each other find parts. It is a great hobby.

Do I wish I had the money to dump half a million into my own V-12 ? Of course. Would I if I did. HECK NO !

I actually LIKE my Packard V-12 for the same reason that Packard V-12's out-sold Cadillac V-16's by at least ten to one, depending on the year, more likely 25 to one if you averaged it out ( I really dont know ). Big Packards are great cars. Heck, ANY Packard is a great car. Free country-I happen to like em VERY big and VERY fast !

Interesting thing happened at a VERY prestegious car show I was invited to a couple of years ago. My '28 Rolls Phantom roadster - oh..guess you'd call it a "10 footer" - great from 10 feet away ( my Packard V-12 is a 20 footer...!). Guy pulls up on the grass alongside me in a beautiful '29 Rolls Phantom. Restored to death ! Drooled over it. Told the guy how impressed I was with the detail of his restoration (it looked and smelled brand new). He said "thanks, but it isnt mine...I just work for the guy who owns it".

Judging time. Owner of that Rolls is standing proudly around while his flunkies open the hood, etc. ( I dont have my cars judged - waste of their time - I know my car's limitations !). Then he is asked by the judges to get in and start it. He looks puzzled, explains his befuddlement to the judges - he has NO IDEA how to start the thing ! He'd never RIDDEN in it under its own power, much less DRIVEN it.

So, John, you are partially correct. I have not "restored" my Packard V-12 to compete for judging. But I have won trophies. Well, to be accurate, trophies I have won were for "longest distance under own power". But I did win and they were trophies! Wrong again, John.

Again, we best help our fellow Packard owners by giving ACCURATE info., when we KNOW what we are talking about. Sometimes it dosnt work - look how upset some guys got when I explained to them that if a Packard V-12 is getting only 7 mpg, something is wrong...VERY wrong, to the point where they arent getting out of their Packard experience what they should.

I've seem Tom's 39 coupe in the real - very nice

Peter: Maybe you should give Ed Miller a phone call and get some advice on how to drive a 100 point more than five miles and not ruin it.

Heck in 1999 at Warren the wife and I rode around Warren with Ed Miller in his 1933 Packard V12 Convertible Sedan. We sure as heck traveled more than five miles. I maybe wrong but I still think ED's car was a 100 pointer that day.

The point of what I stated you spent on obtaining your Packard you missed. It has cost most of us more to get into this hobby than what you spent on your Packard.

From being to a few ConCours events those guys with the best cars and the most do very little bragging if any. It seems to be the guy with the least is the one that has to blow his horn the loudest.

John F. Shireman

seriously all i wanted was some leads on where some cheap 120 coupes may be at...for future reference.....didn't mean to start anything...

so, back to the subject....anyone know where any are?

later dudes,

Hank

I have no leeds for you. Good luck on your hunt for a 120.

Sometimes when you buy soemthing that has been restored by other persons you are buying junk, other times not.

John F. Shireman

i want one to restore myself.....a cheap project car is all....i don't need to to be spectacular.