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Did Packard every consider making a commercial version of these engines. Obviously, a commercial version would be cast iron, rather than the non-magnetic materials used in the MSO engines, but would the other features, the overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder and turbochargers make them wildly overpriced for the civilian market? The smallest, the 1D-850, is almost down to the size of the largest engine available from Kenworth today.

The Neal book, "Master Motor Builders" looks like it might be the best source for this information.

Not that I'm aware of, though you might ask Mr. Neal. I guess you're aware of this thread.

packardclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=478

Photo from the 2013 Proving Grounds visit during the Packard National.

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<i>I guess you're aware of this thread.</i>

Yes, I had found that thread and another, which is where I found the reference to the Neal book.

re the photo from the PPG. One of the other threads said there was a row of marine engines there. Other than the 1D-1700 and the 4M-2500, were the rest converted car engines?

The way that Packard had leveraged the development of the Liberty, on the government's dime, into the 1A-2500, and Boeing leveraged the B-47 and B-52 development, on the government's dime, into the 707, Packard leveraging their postwar diesel development, on the government's dime, into a civilian line would seem to be natural, unless the design was so exotic that, even in iron, it would be too expensive for the market.

RogerDetroit could tell you exactly which Packard marine engines are at the PPG, that's a 1M-245 next to the diesel. Between the PPG, Warren & Dayton there is pretty much a full set of restored Packard marine engines based on the auto engines, the 1M-356, 357, 268 and 245, plus a couple of aftermarket Stokes conversions of the V8 352. Other than the V12 types, the 357 and 268 are the really uncommon ones (seepackardclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=485) and are especially interesting because the final drive is from the front (timing chain) end and not the flywheel end. Most of these were restored and donated thru the generousity of Mr. Ole B??k of New Jersey.

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Thanks for the link. Sounds like Packard was leveraging their road engines for the marine market, but didn't offer something comparable to the Hall-Scott Invader (1,000cuin, give or take)

Well, Amazon had a copy of the Neal book, so I grabbed it tonight. Found an interesting book on Hall-Scott so grabbed that one too. Hercules doesn't seem to get any love though, as I didn't see anything. Getting the winter reading list in order.

Steve, I think you'll find Bob Neal's book to be an exceptional read, very well-researched and written and well-illustrated. I have all his books except the one on Smith & Wesson and the one on the Liberty engines, they are excellent and I expect his current effort on the 51-54 Packards will be another outstanding contribution to Packard history.

the one on the Liberty engines

Well, between the Neal book and the one about Hall-Scott, I should have the Liberty covered, as Jessie Vincent's partner in designing the Liberty was E. J. Hall, of Hall-Scott, which was a significant aircraft engine builder at the time.

I'll be looking forward to the development of the Packard 2500 series. It's crossed my mind that, had the 1A-2500 been a success as an aircraft engine, Packard might not have converted it for marine racing use. If it had not been converted to marine use, we wouldn't have had such a powerful, light, engine with 10 years of development behind it, when the war started.

Hall-Scott exited the aircraft engine business at the end of WWI, to focus on trucking, marine and stationary power applications. The H-S engines retained their aircraft design elements: overhead cam, hemi combusion chambers, dual sparkplugs, but did not approch the Packard 2500's performance. The H-S Defender displaced 2000cuin, but weighed a 1,000 pounds more than the 4M-2500, and only developed half the power.

Without the Packard engine, and the Defender was inadequate, the only thing left was probably the Allison 1710. Years ago, I read about someone having a large boat on either Lake Tahoe or Mead powered by two Allisons. As the Allison powered every modern fighter the Army had, when the war started the owner hid the boat out of fear the government would requisition the engines.

"Thunderbird" designed by George Hacker with twin Allison's.

If you've ever seen her, then you will never forget her.

One of the treats on the Henry Joy IV tour was seeing the original "El Legarto" at the Adirondack Museum at Blue Lake, and then by special arrangement our cruise on Lake George was met by the El Legarto replica.

thunderboats.org/history/history0064.html

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