Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Had hoped to start up my '40 with the refreshed '47 engine this weekend. New heavy battery cables, everything's cleaned up and shiny so grounds are good, battery fully charged. Key on, ammeter shows life; starter button non functional. try to start it using the solenoid button; brief movement of the engine, then nothing other than a hum in the starter or solenoid when button is pressed.

(this was the starter on the '47 engine that I refreshed. The starter got no work though.).

Swapped the starter out, thinking the '47 starter might be at issue. Put in the '40 starter, which hasn't been used in 32 years. No sounds, no movement. The '40 starter, when last used 32 years ago, did not have an issue. It was barn-stored all that time.

Pulled it back out. Bench tested it and the '47, other than a hum from the '47, nothing.

Haven't checked the solenoids yet, but I suspect the problem is deeper.

Any advice? I'll likely take the '47 starter to my local rebuilder.

Which engine or starter. If a small engine and starter with the 3 terminal solenoid it could be the starter or solenoid or a bad wire or connection. Solenoids for those are inexpensive and easily replaced if that turns out to be the problem.

If the 356 with the Autolite starter and large 4 terminal solenoid, those are a different beast and have an additional wiring need in the car that has to be hooked up and operational or else completely bypassed. The internal solenoid electrical path it needs to pull in also requires the starter motor, particularly the brushes and armature to be in good electrical condition. If you have that solenoid and want them, I can provide a diagram of the solenoid and a simplified diagram showing the extra car wiring it needs plus an Autolite test procedure for troubleshooting the solenoid. The solenoid will probably be harder to find and expensive if it turns out yours is the issue and it cannot be repaired.

both are off of 245's with three terminal solenoids. I tested both solenoids and both are good.

Edit--Both starters are Delco; I did not get the model numbers off of them though.

Having the starter looked at sounds like a good decision as the brushes and armature or even a worn bushing could be the issue. On the solenoid, it might pull in just fine and appear to be OK but if the internal contact plate is worn or burned it is also possible enough current is not being passed to the motor for it to start.

Another thing could be the condition of the battery or cables and terminals. Corrosion could have set in inside a terminal or cable connection resulting in a high resistance and again not enough current to turn the motor. A battery cell can also fail and while the battery will often test OK with a regular voltmeter, the bad cell is only putting out what is called a surface voltage which might be enough to power a few lights but it will not be able to supply the needed current for the starter.

Good point on the solenoids; have not checked with a known good spare (which I'd need to rob off of my '37 115c, and will not).

Battery cables are new, locally built.

Battery is two years old, borrowed from my '37 115c; a spare 1 year old 6v from one of my Ford 8N's didn't make any difference. Load tested them both and they're fine.

So a bit more info; a couple starters will head to the rebuild shop, but some of you might have some advice.

The starter on the original 1940 110 is an Autolite MZ 4078, which is stock and correct according to the parts manual. The starter overall is a smaller diameter than the Delco Remy's mentioned below and is noticeably lighter.

The starter on my restored '37 115c is a Delco Remy 739F, SN 137672.

The starter on the donor '47 engine is a Delco Remy 739F 25302.

Given the SN's on the '47 and '37, the '37's obviously been replaced (someone did a frame off); the '47 is probably stock.

The clutch assemblies on the original '40 and '47 appeared identical as did the flywheels. I reused the '40 assembly as it was in remarkably good condition, but did have the fly wheel cleaned up at a shop.

So it appears to me that there should not be any issues interchanging the starters.

Question for the forum: Is one brand or another more robust? I'm tempted to just have the original Autolite rebuilt, and put the '47 DR on the shelf in case I need one for the '37 in the future. (but the one in there will probably outlive me).

So a bit more info; a couple starters will head to the rebuild shop, but some of you might have some advice.

The starter on the original 1940 110 is an Autolite MZ 4078, which is stock and correct according to the parts manual. The starter overall is a smaller diameter than the Delco Remy's mentioned below and is noticeably lighter.

The starter on my restored '37 115c is a Delco Remy 739F, SN 137672.

The starter on the donor '47 engine is a Delco Remy 739F 25302.

Given the SN's on the '47 and '37, the '37's obviously been replaced (someone did a frame off); the '47 is probably stock.

The clutch assemblies on the original '40 and '47 appeared identical as did the flywheels. I reused the '40 assembly as it was in remarkably good condition, but did have the fly wheel cleaned up at a shop.

So it appears to me that there should not be any issues interchanging the starters.

Question for the forum: Is one brand or another more robust? I'm tempted to just have the original Autolite rebuilt, and put the '47 DR on the shelf in case I need one for the '37 in the future. (but the one in there will probably outlive me).

The number you gave for the 47 Delco sounds more like another early number so it might have been swapped in too. According to specs both Autolite and Delco was available for the 21st series 6 cyl models. The original Delco motor on 2100 models would be a 1107056. The 47 Autolite number is MAW-4027. Be that as it may, the only starter spec Packard gives other than starter model numbers is the stall torque.

In 1936 Service Letter Vol 10 #17 which has the specs for the 37 models, they list a stall torque of 13ft lbs at 4v drawing 675 amps for the 739-F. The specs as given in the 1945 Service Counselor Vol 19 #10 for the 21st series 6 cyl 2100 models with the Delco starter and 1107056 number says it has a stall torque of 18ft lbs at 4v and pulls 670 amps. No stall torque is found for the 40 MZ-4078 but there may be a page missing in the 39 service letter that has the 40 specs. Also no separate spec is given for the 2100 6 cyl Autolite starter so I imagine the two 6 cyl starters are very comparable.

With the specs given I would think that would indicate the 739-F starter is the weaker one but someone with an old Delco and Autolite catalog would have to confirm that or provide any more info.

Thanks, Howard--great info.

Both went into the rebuilder today, probably 3 weeks before I get them back. Used to be a few days, but other shops in the region have closed and they're now getting all the work, including a bunch of Class 8 truck and industrial engine work for alternators, starters and generators.