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I think it is a good thing to have a major vendor, like Fred Kanter who has been around awhile in the hobby actually having the nerve to post here. Most vendors love to hide behind the scenes and won't put comments, let alone their name behind their products.

That being said, just because Fred Kanter is a major vendor, doesn't mean he can't be wrong, or even corrected when needed. If there is one thing I have learned over the 13 years working for an antique parts vendor, is that there is no such thing as an expert. Just people who know a little more than others. Vendors are not perfect, nor are they Guru's of all knowledge.

Finding a fix for the problem of the BTW is a big challenge. We have some of the best mechanical minds with a combined Packard knowledge would add up to 1000 years here at packardinfo, and it would be a shame if a fix for this problem were to elude us because of personal sniping and one upmanship.

The Packard Oil pump fix was a brilliant solution. If you guys can all work together, along with Fred Kanter it will put alot more Packards on the road, and safely operating for its loyal owners.

Come on Team!

I joined this group to learn about Packards.
I learned Schoolyard 50 years ago.
I've come to view notices about this thread like notices from my dentist: I know I should read them but I dread them not withstanding.
There is nothing left to do but stop the notices and figure it out for myself!

portlandon wrote: Quote:

IMO, there are a few significant differences between the oil pump fix for Packard V-8s and a fix for the BTV failures.

1) If your oil pump starts to fail, there are warning signs such as lifter clack and low oil pressure. With the BTV, there is usually no warning. One moment you have brakes and the next pedal press you do not.

2) If your oil pump fails, the worst that happens is that you burn up the bearings in your engine and your car slowly stops, but under control. If the BTV fails, you have no brakes and you will probably hit something unless you are lucky, can steer quickly or remember to pull on the e-brake which had better be properly adjusted.

3) a) In the case of production of the Olds oil pump adapter kits, I took it upon myself to find a machinist source, front the inventory cost, handle the order processing, ship the orders and deal with the very few resultant problems. Since my machinist has passed away, I handed the above over to Jack Vines.

3) b) In the case of a BTV fix, there are several different replacement options available including mine, Eric, Keith, Paul, Jerry and Bob. For a variety of reasons, none of us have elected to be the supplier of same, but all have been free with information and installation instructions and pictures. Until someone or some company steps up with a commercial grade kit, I do not see the situation changing. Of course, there are also those who have elected to repair their BTV with the (possible) confidence that the fix will permanently solve any failure mode.

So, I beg to differ with Portlandon. There ARE fixes for the BTV available, so no pulling together is necessary

I agree that sniping and oneupsmanship about it are not necessary.

Those that want a replacement, go that route. Those that want to repair their BTV with the best kits currently available, do that. Those that want to ignore the problem, do that. In any case, don't soil this website with further bickering.

Craig

Jim L writes:

"I've come to view notices about this thread like notices from my dentist: I know I should read them but I dread them not withstanding.
There is nothing left to do but stop the notices and figure it out for myself!"

Just hang around for a while. Glean from it what u can, what u will, when u can. It's called the World Wide WEB. It's an I'Net Discussion Group. It is NOT a sunday school class.

OR let me put it another way: U've obviously never worked in the auto industry.

DELETED TO SAVE MYSELF THE HEADACHE.

I agree that sniping and oneupmanship are not appropriate here or perhaps anywhere. What is needed is helpful information presented with supporting , easily understandable background so that all may understand.

We have a database of 15,000 customers who have bought BTV kits. I will send a questionaire to 100 of them to get reliability and failure data so I can report in the forums.
This should yield real data, not incidental reports.

When information is presented in these forums which I know to be incorrect from my 50+ years of experience, I will correct it. If it is posted with great emphasis and repeated several times, a wimpy reply may not be noticed, thus the strength of some of my replies.

This post deals with a safety issue and for me to not be emphatic when safety is involved would be irresponsible.

Likewise when one member had a PS/Disclaimer at the bottom of hundreds of posts "warning" readers about sells some Chinese made parts (It's us) and in many posts gives unsupported information about the poor quality of such parts, it's time to respond WITH THE TRUTH. All please note the the "Disclaimer" was removed from the hundreds of places it appeared, and with good reason. That was not accomplished with a wimpy response.

To me this is not a "social site", leave that to Facebook. This is a place to share and learn about all things Packard , but there is surely nothing wrong with being sociable.

Fred Kanter

The "disclaimer" was removed because Kevin asked me too, if he hadn't it would still be there, as I think people should be aware that the part they're buying is made in a foreign country. And since it was in a signature, that changes every single post I make when I change it.

As for THE TRUTH and the like, why haven't you answered my questions to you, I've answered your questions?

As a recent '55 Packard buyer, I can no more avoid this topic than I can my dentist.
As such, I for one would really like to know the results of the survey Fred offered to do with his BTV database. Since I'm going to have to make a decision (hopefully soon) about MY BTV, I'd need all the rational empirical data I can get.
It's also been mentioned that the failure rate of these units seems to be a comparatively recent problem. I wonder how much of that is due to that when these cars and units were factory fresh they were used as "Daily Drivers" racking up on average 13,000 miles a year whereas most of us treat our Packard as Sacred Relics and are lucky if they are driven 1,300 miles per year with most of that during the Summer. After looking real hard at the design of the BTV it seems to me that when released, the Compensator Valve sits an "artificial angle" compared to its position when actually doing it's job. I wonder if sitting for long periods with one side of the rubber seal up against cast iron while soaking in brake fluid wouldn't deform the rubber face if not the spring as well. Whereas daily use would at least offer some variety of position. I'm no engineer but I have seen what brake fluid can do to metal and rubber.
I also realize quality of replacement parts and workmanship come into play here, hence the usefulness of Fred's offer. Coming from a long line of new car dealers, I know that the old adage of "never buy a car built on a Monday or Friday" was more than just an Old Wive's Tale.

Hi all:

It's interesting that, given reliabilty complaints, no one (including Bendix) ever developed an upgrade to make the unit more robust. For example and additional guide bushing for the ram, a duplex seal, and a compensator valve that wasn't so cheap. All of these could be fitted to the existing castings. However, I am sure that if the unit was bad back then the State Highway Patrols would have mandated a different set up for Police cars given the frequency of high speed pursuits. Although most of them had manual brakes.

Now a dual system is not two braking systems. I suggest those curious throw open a bleeder on their modern car and test the brakes at low speed. The system works well enough to get the car to a stop, but chances are if you are trying to stop fast you are still going to crack up. You don't get that "pedal to the floor sensation" that makes your hair stand on end.

Thus, a functioning handbrake is a must on these cars, and I have found that some of them just don't work that well for want of new OEM parts.

Way back when, Bendix used to have what were called "service outlets" that had drive on brake equalizing machines. Some people don't believe this except that I knew someone who had one of these machines and it was great.
When set up properly the Packard power mechanical brakes will lock the wheels at over 50mph.

This is all just wind and whenever I drive one of these cars I do a mental calculation as to how many cars were on the road when it was built and keep that in mind. I have seen videos of brand new cars from the 50's losing control in a panic stop. Thus, a properly working BTV is no match for a 32-36 Packard power brake and I always drive such cars with care.

Good luck

The compensator valve rubber face bears against a machined steel hex fitting, not a casting. The rubber is of rather high durometer as I recall, thus not subject to deformation when tilted. Teh rubber used in all brake systems is formulated so as not to be attacked by brake fluid, sitting in brake fluid is like having a fish in water, it will not drown. I have never seen a deformed valve unless the brake fluid was contaminated with a petroleum product.

Brake fluid does nothing to metal and rubber. DOT 3 Brake fluid is hygroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. It is recommended by all manufacturers that you flush the brake system periodically in order to get the water out. It will pit the wheel cylinders and rust any iron based parts in the system such as the metal clad. WE all know cars that have gone for 50,000 miles or 10 years without having this done with no problem, then there are cars which can sit in a damp garage adn in 1 year the brakes are leaking.

Consider this: If you had a car where the oil was to be changed every 3,000 miles or 6 months and you ignored that, if the bearing burned out after 30,000 miles would you be clamoring for the car manufacturer to redesign the motor??

If the mechanic who rebuilt the motor put in defective rod bearings and many cars threw rods through the side of the block, would you blame the manufacturer of the car??

The point is, this problem has a cause and its'not rocket science to find it. Surely hysteia does not help.

The piston does not get loose in any units, therefore does not need an additional or more robust guide bushing. I believe they are hard chromed steel and will rust eventually if there is consdensation in the system. We make replacements in Stainless Steel.

A double seal is not needed, the single seal works fine. An incorrect cover gasket will cause fluid that bypasses the seal not to go back into the reservoir, it will wind up in the vacuum section.

It is not a case of the BTV not being "robust", no reports of them cracking in half. Perhaps the reason Bendix never redesigned the unit back when is that the failure rate was minimal and all repair parts were sourced from them or a major brake parts mfgr like EIS.

My father had a 55 Lincoln with BTV in 1957. We were coming down a hill and the brakes failed, he made it 5 miles to the gas station he used. The BTV was empty, so the mechanic refilled it with motor oil, just as he did the week before. Redesign??


Fred Kanter
Kanter Auto Products
Boonton NJ