Packard Forum Index » General

"Sorry to say that I am no big fan of Fiat because of what I have seen in the past in the USA concerning Fiats lack of quality."

^ Uh.... like maybe 25 years ago?

The Times of London reviews the Alfa 159 (2006). Here are a few excerpts:

"The driving position is spot on, the dials look like they've come from a Swiss watch and the quality of the leather, especially if you have it in red, gives the impression that it costs Rolls-Royce money."

"But the engine, torquey, powerful and smooth though it may be, is not the best part of this car. That accolade goes to the steering. It's fast, sharp, more informative than the internet and more tactile than a freshly carved stone otter."

"The handling is also sweet and yet the ride isn't even slightly uncomfortable. Which means that the 159 drives and feels like no other car in its class. If you have even the faintest trace of petrol in your veins, if you are even on nodding terms with the concept of simple, good engineering, you should drive this car. Because it doesn't matter what you have now, you'll be smitten. I was."

"This is one of those cars that's demonstrably and appreciably better than any other mid-range four-door family saloon."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article695347.ece

-----------

Personally, I don't think the Alfa is up to BMW 3 and Audi standards, but it is a worthy contender in every way.

However, that being said, honestly, I don't think a sedan like this would translate well for the needs of most American drivers, but my point is that the Fiat of today is not that of 20 years ago... or even 5 years ago.

I think the current management is so sharp and exceptional, that my hopes are high. They have been able to deliver better products but most importantly they've been able to change the public's perception of the cars. You have to remember, that up until just a few years ago, Italian cars in Italy were considered very uncool. You wanted a German car, young people drove VW Golfs... and the entry level Peuguet coupes were also popular with young people. Professionals wanted a Mercedes or Audi... they did not want anything by Fiat.

Certainly German cars still maintain their high status... but now suddenly Fiats, Alfas and Lancias are cool too... suddenly young people and professionals want them... they are almost a fashion statement... they are hip... and that is a huge achievement. Oh and Maserati... remember those horrible BiTurbos? Now suddenly the Maserati has gone from being considered crass to being chic and elegant and even old-money here is driving them.

That for me is the work that GM and Chrysler must do: they must change the public's perception. It's great that the Buick LaCrosse is now at the top for durability... but will it become "the thing" to own?

Gerardo: While the Alfa 159 looks like a good auto my tastes run in a different direction. I would prefer to have sitting in my garage or drive
way if I could afford it a 2009 Cadillac CTS. The CTS V has some performance numbers that even the new Maserati Quattroporte can't match.

Maybe you should read what Motor Trend and Consumer Guide have to say about the Cadillac 2009 CTS. Here is what Motor Trend had to say about the 2009 CTS. PROOF THAT AMERICA CAN TAKE ON EUROPE'S BEST.

I must admit that I am very bias for American built auto's, just as you are of the auto's that are built in your home country of Italy. I certainly enjoy the exchanges that we have had over the last couple of weeks. Please keep it coming.

John F. Shireman

I finally saw a new Cadillac CTS a few weeks ago... parked on the street here in my town.

The paint job looked like it had been applied with a roller.

Anyway... as I said: besides the facts, what is important is the public's perception. If the Caddy is getting rave reviews, is it translating to the American public?

Are American Lexus, BMW and Audi owners giving up their cars for a Cadillac?

IMHO: No matter how good it is, Caddy's "bad-ass" bling-mobile styling will continue to keep it marginalized. BMW, Audi, Mercedes... the look... the aura... is refined, the Caddy has a comic-book style that's just a little gross.

Compare them to designer Bill Mitchell's elegant Cadillacs from 1963/64 and 1965/66... back when Cadillac ruled the earth.

----

To illustrate my point... note the similarity of tone :

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/?action=view¤t=31NewMercedesAdCampaign2-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/31NewMercedesAdCampaign2-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

The Alfa 159 was exactly what I had in mind. I think the BMW 3 and Audi 4 is too narrow a target group for competition. This is a crowded part of the market and Infiniti, Lexus, Nissan, Acura, Lincoln, Mercury also play here

Funny you mention the Caddy paint - in GM's tech center lobby they display some of their wares, and on a recent visit they had a black Caddy orange peel special (I'd say more rattle can than roller).

I'll give Caddy credit for having distinctive styling, but so did the Graham sharknose. So you love it or hate it and that's OK.

I will say that in the past Caddy and GM have been able to able to build bodies that didn't rust out after a couple of years being exposed to winters in the northeast.Seems that those Alfa's and Fiat's built coach work was good at having severe rust problems in a short few years when exposed to road salt here in the northeast..

Paint is the one area that GM has and Caddy have to improve on. However I do know that if I were to buy a current model Caddy it has a body that will withstand northeastern winters and road salt. I just wonder if the same can be said for the current Alfa 159.

The best that can be said in my opinion about current front end styling of Audi is that it looks like a dead fish with its mouth open and four rings put in the gaping black hole.

I guess Motor Trend and Consumers Guide are wrong about the current Caddy CTS.

The big question remains for Fiat SPA is can they ever regain the market share that they seemed to have lost over the years in Europe and Italy.

John F. Shireman

Please explain your point about market share.

First of all, 25 years ago, Italy and Europe in general did not have Japanese cars to contend with (neither did the US for that matter). The market is now full of brands that simply did not exist before. So naturally the pie is smaller. This is why the objective now is to go global and sell in other markets.

In the meantime Fiat's market share in Italy and Europe is growing after years of falling.

Please tell us how Chrysler and GMs market share has been doing.

Perhaps a better picture is not market share but overall sales and profitability.

At the moment Fiat (unbelivable as it seems) now sells more cars than the once mighty Chrysler. And it is profitable while Chrysler for all intents and purposes is bankrupt.

-----

Audi styling: we may all have our own personal tastes but my bet is that most will prefer the looks of an Audi to the current Cadillac... for me it is a question of refinement: the boy-racer looks of the Caddy are, IMHO, unrefined and clumsy... although certainly better than anything they've done in the last 30 years... and it is a nice achievement for GM: the car is a contender.

But Detroit handed the luxury car segment over to the Germans and the Japanese on a plate. Detroit needs to make all-out luxury cars like the BMW 7 series, the Mercedes S class, and the Lexus LS.

-----

The Caddy styling still has a whiff of GM econo-car circa 1985. Honestly: which looks more sophisticated? :

[<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/?action=view¤t=audi_a5_con_s_line_pack_4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/audi_a5_con_s_line_pack_4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Gerardo: It gets very interesting if you do a little research on Fiat SPA on what kind of financial shape they maybe be in.

Last week I found this article on how Standard & Poor's rates Fiat when it comes to Fiat's money outlook and paying back what it owes its creditors

Milan Italy: Standard & Poor's cut Fiat's rating to junk status Tuesday as the Italian auto firm was finalising plans for a tie up with the falling Chrysler.

The ratings agency cut Fiat's long term debt rating to BB+,
the highest junk rating, and warned that a further downgrade was possible.

The decision, which will make borrowing more expensive for Fiat SPA, was due to FIAT"S WEAK liquidity position if you consider the debts maturing in 2009 and 2010 , said analysts Barbara Castellano.

Fiat SPA doesn't have enough financial resources in the form of credit lines to fully meet it deadlines over the next 12 months.

I did some more research and find that Fiat SPA has a very big mountain load of debt which may still cause it many problems. It seems that as late as 2005 Fiat SPA had debts totaling $33 billion US dollars. So what it really comes to is that Fiat SPA may not be in much better shape than Chrysler or GM.

John F. Sherman

^ In these particular times and in the scheme of things a bad S&P rating means little.

Remember: although they are being considered, so far there has been no government handout to Fiat as there has been with GM & Chrysler. Despite debt, Fiat is considered to be a profitable company: GM & Chrysler aren't.

From Forbes:

Junk Status Could Help Fiat
"A downgrade of the firm should help the carmaker avoid taking on Chrysler's debt."

http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/01/chrysler-fiat-auto-markets-equity-sp.html

so far there has been no government handout to Fiat

You're certainly far better-informed than I am on this, and I can't lay my eyes on anything substantive, but I had the impression that either directly or indirectly the Italian Goverment had subsidized Fiat on and off for decades.

Fiat is a privately owned company and does not recieve subsidies from the government although it will certainly benefit from government contracts and other "favours".

You must consider that in 2004 Fiat was considered all but dead... while it has been given no subsidies by the Italian government, it was given a 2 billion dollar penalty from GM: a move that helped finance Fiats recovery, and added to GM's financial woes. Quite ironic.

The government here does of course have socialized medicine and other social perks, so that burden is taken off of businesses. And from time to time the gov offers stimulous to car buyers like the following:

AutomotiveNews April 2, 2009 - Excerpts:

Scrapping subsidies boost sales in Europe, draw U.S. attention

Germany and Italy are the latest countries to report March increases in car sales helped by government scrapping incentives.

In Germany, registrations increased 40 percent last month. In Italy, a 0.24 percent rise in registrations was celebrated because it was the first increase in a year. France's auto association, the CCFA, has already reported an 8.1 percent rise in registrations in March compared with the same month in 2008.

The European boom from scrapping incentives is raising eyebrows in the U.S., where President Obama and Congress are pushing for similar measures. But the legislation has stalled while lawmakers -- and competing factions in the auto industry -- debate whether the incentive should only cover the purchase of American-made vehicles. Foreign automakers contend all new vehicle purchases in the U.S. should be covered by the incentive.

Germany's car importers association, the VDIK, today said car sales in Europe's biggest market increased to about 401,000 last month.

The German government's car-scrapping program prompted the VDIK to forecast double-digit percentage growth in new registrations in the first quarter. Berlin has now extended until the end of year the 1.5 billion euro ($1.98 billion) program it launched in February that pays owners 2,500 euros to trade in cars that are more than 9 years old for newer, more fuel-efficient models.

"The decision to top up funds for the (bonus scheme) came just in time given that the money originally approved has run out," VDIK head Volker Lange said.

New-car sales in Germany rose 21.5 percent to 277,740 in February, the first full month that the scrapping incentive was available.

In Italy, industry watchers said a 0.24 percent in March registrations to 214,218 was a sign that the government's scrapping subsidy is working. Car orders in March rose 36 percent on the year to 276,000, said Italy's foreign carmakers association, UNRAE.

"An orders portfolio so high will certainly have positive effects on registrations in April," UNRAE said, noting that, unlike last year, the Easter holidays this year fall in April, lowering the number of working days.

Research group Promotor expects that the full effect of the country's incentive program will be seen when new-car sales data is released for April and May.

Fiat saw its Italian sales for its three brands increase 6.1 percent to 69,882 units in March, Reuters calculations showed. Fiat's market share in Italy rose to 32.62 percent compared with 30.83 percent in March 2008. The group's orders in March rose 59 percent, a company source said.

The French car manufacturers association, CCFA, said an 8.1 percent rise in last month's registrations to 204,095 unit was helped by the government's scrapping bonus and environmental taxes aimed at promoting sales of fuel-efficient cars. CCFA President Xavier Fels estimated that 30 percent to 40 percent of all sales in March benefited from French government scrapping incentives.

In Spain, March new-car sales dropped 38.7 percent to 76,503, but were supported by the government's Plan Vive-2 scrapping incentive program, said the country's automaker association, Anfac.

France, Germany, Spain, Italy are among European countries whose governments are offering buyers incentives between 1,000 euros and 5,000 euros to swap old cars for new, less-polluting models. The United Kingdom is considering a similar scheme.