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Board index » All Posts (jimk1954)




Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#11
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Jim Kavanagh
Following up on the solenoid I installed and which failed almost immediately. It was a rebuilt sold by a Packard shop.

When I pulled the cap off the solenoid, the plunger shaft had extended all the way to the top of the cap, and the force of the plunger action had actually moved the two point contacts to either side of the shaft. It was still extended when I pulled it apart. The shaft can be moved (under pressure) beyond what should be its resting position. I am not sure what should prevent this, other than the operation of the solenoid. Is there an actual hard stop?

This resulted in bending the arms that hold the points to an extent that they no longer both break when the shaft moves inward and also close the small points that I think turn off the dash light.

This solenoid worked only two or three times when I installed it, and that was it. I assume at that point, the shaft shorted by contact to the cap, you can see the burn marks in the cap in one of the pictures.

I am not sure, but I think the shaft is just a bit shorter than in my other solenoid, because I can install my other solenoid without energizing it after I pull out the pawl, but this one I must energize. Unfortunately, I did not measure the length on my other solenoid before I re-installed it.

Is this just a bad rebuild, or is there possibly something else going on?

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Posted on: 2019/4/17 12:18
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#12
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Jim Kavanagh
I found that I had a spare Governor in my garage, so I used the top plate off that unit, rather than switching the entire unit.

Everything now works as it should, except that the dash light goes on when the solenoid kicks in, but does not go out after it has engaged. It has in the past.

Other than that, the units shifts nicely into OD and back out as i slow down.

I think the shift speed is maybe a little lower than i am used to.

Posted on: 2019/4/3 18:51
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#13
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Jim Kavanagh
Thank you for the info on the "always powered" state of the OD. I am not sure that I ever noticed this before.

I think I have a couple ways to proceed.

I can advance the screw until I have contact and then back it off a little and then check the engagement speed. Then adjust a little at a time. I assume the further out I go, the higher the engagement speed? Right now, I get no engagement at any speed.

I can ground it and use the OD knob on the dash to make sure everything else is working, OD engaging , etc., then try to adjust the engagement speed as above. I just need to make sure I engage it going forward and remember to disengage it when I slow up significantly. I only need to move the OD knob a small amount, so I would not be engaging the lockout with the knob.

If none of that works satisfactorily, I can source a rebuilt governor.

The way the unit works, it looks like there is no way to gap the points with the unit off line to adjust.

Have you adjusted the unit on the car before? Any advice as to how to approach it?

Thank you for your help.

Posted on: 2019/4/3 11:38
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Overdrive wiring issue
#14
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Jim Kavanagh
I took the cover off the Governor today (of course did not have the presence of mind to snap a picture) and it does look like the screw in question does adjust or at least affect the top most point in the point set. Now that I see how it operates, I can see that screwing it in probably forced the points closed. Does not look like anything is bent, but getting the gap back correctly could be a problem. I can probably confirm that the governor is the issue by screwing this down again to close the points and using the dash knob to engage the solenoid once I am up to speed. Sounds like there is an opportunity for disaster in that scenario if I forget to disengage it.

I attach a picture of the outside of the cover. I may have an extra cover, but I don't think the adjustment screw would already be pre-set.

I replaced the screw with the old one and added a nut to spin down and secure the wire, but I do not have a sense for the initial gap.

I do have a lift, so I believe I could have someone run the car up to about 20 MPH and I could screw in the adjuster until I get engagement. Sounds kind of nerve racking to me, but it might be the only way to get the adjustment close.

One thing I noted today. When I ground the OD at the governor, I get the solenoid triggering when the key is OFF as well as when it is ON. Shouldn't this only work when the key is in the ON position?

Ross - I think the screw is the issue. Although it looks, from the outside, like the screw would not adjust the points, I took the cover off and can see that the screw does directly adjust the top point of the set. When I first got the car, the OD did not work and the Packard guys at Custom Auto in So Cal made it work. Maybe this was a fix they made?

HH - Thanks for all the info. The inside of my cover is a little different, but I can see how the points engage.

I traced the wires by disconnecting all the wires at the solenoid and at the relay, and then simply checking continuity. This is about as sophisticated as I get with auto electrics. But I do think it was a clean test, since I disconnected everything.

When I accidentally grounded the governor, the dash light was on and brite. It has always worked in the past. Once I put everything back (but with incorrect point gap) the light does not go on and the solenoid does not attempt tp engage, at least, I can't hear it do anything.

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Posted on: 2019/4/2 20:33
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Overdrive wiring issue
#15
Home away from home
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Jim Kavanagh
I have an R9 on my 41 120. Both Overdrive and Electromatic Clutch. Both the OD and EC have always worked.
I recently changed out the OD solenoid. I did mark the wiring, but it is not impossible that I messed up.

Once changed out, the new solenoid operated only a few times and then would no longer engage. Afterward, I could not engage the solenoid by grounding the OD wire at the governor. I then replaced the solenoid with the original one.

When changing the solenoid, I noted that the EC wire on the governor was quite loose, so I screwed in the screw to tighten the wire. When done, as soon as I pushed in the OD dash lever, I could hear the solenoid click and engage (this is while ildeling, or even with the engine off, but the key on) and the indicator light on the dash would light.

At this point, the dash knob was completing the circuit, so the governor switch had to be grounded. Obviously, I did not reverse or move the car with the solenoid so engaged.

After puzzling for a day, I pulled the EC terminal screw at the governor (that I had screwed in to tightened) and noted it was very long - probably longer than an inch. I think that tightening it down actually grounded the unit due to the length. I replaced it with a shorter one, and now I get no engagement when I push the OD dash knob in (and the indicator light stays out), so, at stand still, the solenoid is not engaged. Unfortunatey, I also do not get any engagement after I hit 18 MPH (and no indicator light), or at any speed.

The other condition I noted with the long screw completely turned in was that the middle contact on the EC relay unit would engage as soon as I engaged the battery with everything else off - including the key. I have a kill switch and tested this several times. I could do nothing, except remove the EC unit fuse, to stop this from happening as soon as the battery power was provided.

Now that the shorter screw is in the governor, This contact no longer energizes when I provide battery power.

The EC unit does work fine, so I feel that the governor is working, although the solenoid does not energize under operation. It did on my bench before I re-installed it.

I tested the continuity of the wiring between the OD relay and the solenoid. Contacts 2 and 3 seem to be wired as shown in the OD training manual, however, the 4 and 6 terminals may be reversed. I know the wiring is correct at the relay, and believe it is correct at the solenoid, that is it is as it has always been, but again, I could be wrong.

What would be the effect if these two wires are switched? Can I reverse these without risking damage to the unit?
Just because grounding the governor earlier and having that grounding result in the solenoid pull-in and hold-in circuits working, it makes me think that the issue of not now engaging at speed is related to the governor. But I am not sure if that logic holds up.

This is obviously an electric issue, any other thoughts as to the cause of the current situation?

Posted on: 2019/4/2 0:05
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Rod Bearing Clearance
#16
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Jim Kavanagh
Shorting the plugs had no effect on the sound at all, other than dropping the idle a bit. But the sound remained in terms of volume and intensity as I went down the line individually.

Posted on: 2018/11/18 15:09
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Rod Bearing Clearance
#17
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Jim Kavanagh
I am trying to track down (or eliminate) the source of a loud ticking or knocking on my '52 250.

I pulled the pan and I note that the sideways play for the rod bearings is about .007, although one is about .010. There does not seem to be any noticable up/down play, but I am not sure I would be able to tell with everything together. Is there any guideline for acceptable side-to-side play?

I would like to also check the bearing clearances. The manual suggests using "plasitgage" to check clearances which should be between .001 and .003. I assume that I should replace the connecting rod nuts when I do this as I don't think they are met to be re-used.

While I have the pan off, are there any other tests I should consider that might be helpful?

Posted on: 2018/11/18 1:38
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Series 23 Stalling
#18
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Jim Kavanagh
I had a very similar issue with my '52 when I first got it. The darn ting would stall about 1/2 mile from my garage and would need to sit for about 10 minutes before it would restart. Same intersection everytime. It got to be quite a joke for my wife, not as funny to me.
I was convinced it was fuel related.
It ultimately turned out to be related to the accerater pump in the carb.
When this next happens and it won't start, immediately prime it with some gas down the carb and see if it starts. It shouldn't take much.
For some reason mine was not delivering fuel once I drove only a short distance, but seemed OK if it got past the initial few minutes of driving. Very frustrating until we found the issue.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 15:28
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Loud clicking from my '52
#19
Home away from home
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Jim Kavanagh
I run both the indicator light and a mechanical gauge for oil pressure. At idle when the issue occurs I am at 30 lbs, which actually seems high to me. Under acceleration I get to between 35 and 38. But the gauge is under the hood, so that is accelerating under no load, and I really don't hold the RPMs high for any length of time. Probably if I had it inside where I could see it under constant speed, it would go up a little more. Oil pressure just does not seem like the issue.

I did start this project because I had a slight tick after the car would fully heat up. Not really enough to worry about, and hard to hear with the hood closed, but it bothered me. I should have learned to live with it.

After putting everything back together, there was no noise and the car definitely got hotter than it had prior to the project, but also definitely never overheated. No issues (no lifter noise) for several weeks tracking down the running hot issue, which repeated flushing seems to have cured. But the lifter noise appeared very loudly and very suddenly after a long drive several weeks ago, after the hot running issue was solved. Given this, does it seem likely that I would have a drop in oil pressure to cause this?

I am running a regular oil filter and replaced the element when I put in new oil after doing all the other work. I have not actually tried to by-pass this or check the pressure at that block where the oil goes in from the filter. This is different from where the gauge and the light connect. As I recall it, the oil flows out the bottom of the canister and into the engine low in front of the distributor. Maybe I should try a gauge there, where it goes into the block? There seems to be tons of oil in the valve galleys when I run this with the covers off - oil goes everywhere, but I guess the pressure could be restricted there and still show good pressure at the gauge.?

My Packard guy in So Cal has told me how to test these units, but none seem to test at temperature. I will contact the vendor to see if they can help. Good suggestion which is probably obvious to everyone here but me.

Posted on: 2018/10/30 14:41
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
 Top 


Re: Loud clicking from my '52
#20
Home away from home
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Jim Kavanagh
No power steering on this one. And I did remove the fan belt to rule out the water pump and generator. I pretty much know what this is, I just keep hoping it is something else. Also, replaced all the hydralic lifter inserts just a few weeks ago and really would like to isolate which one it is to avoid replacing them again. I am surprised even with repops that I would get a failure so soon and definately worried about a similar failure after I make the repair.

Posted on: 2018/10/27 14:20
1941 Touring Sedan
1952 250 Convertible
1932 902 Rumble seat Coupe

Who is John Galt?
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