Nothing wrong with those post-war "small eight" Packards. While not a fan of UltraMatic, I drove my '51 convertible back and forth across the continent several times.

Of course the "trick" is to properly maintain a car. Hope we hear from these guys what happened - hopefully they followed the recommendations & advice you guys gave them. If you did, they had a non-eventual trip.

As an illustration of what even the post-war eight cyl. Packards were capable of - my mom ruined our '51 convert. by continuing to drive it after it developed a water leak. I found a complete engine & trans. out of a '54 ambulance (four barrel & 327 cu in) mickey-moused the governor on the UltraMatic so I had an instant convertor "lock up" at any speed over 23 mph. Drove it from the George Washington Bridge on the Hudson River, to the Barham Off-ramp of the Hollywood Freeway, in 2 and a half days, and I SELPT EACH NIGHT (doing around 80 mph most of the time) - and that was before the Interstate !) This was in August - so nice and warm crossing the desert - but again, properly maintained Packards are not capable of overheating . No - no need for an electric fuel pump - in those days the Ried Vapor Pressure of consumer-grade gasoline was much less than today.

Quote:

wow ! there is an old car/Packard expert in northern Australia ? Do tell us more !

[quote]Owen_Dyneto wrote:
You've got to go back in time to the 20s and before to appreciate the need for winterfronts ..

+ + +

Of course Owen is correct - gives me a chance to harp on, to illustrate one of my pet theories - how "classic era" engineers came up with expensive and complex solutions to problems already eliminated by more modern thinking!

Actually, for the reasons Owen pointed out, radiator shutters are still seen today on "big rigs".

Modern big truck diesel engines are so efficient, even with internal themostats in their water cooling systems, they'd never warm up in really cold weather without the shutters blocking the air flow.

The introduction of 'modern' anti freeze (for example, glychol-based solutions) available in any auto parts store or dealer eliminated the need for shutters on passenger cars and light trucks. So by the early thirties, those shutters on cars were unnecessary, even harmful & thus obsolete.

Let's be honest - those monster multi-cylinder motors produced by Packard, Piece Arrow, Lincoln, Cadillac? To get smoothness ? Sure they were smoother, if you bolted the engine rigidly to the chassis.

The introduction of the rubber mounted motor in the early 1930's made them obsolete too - the multi cylinder concept was an outstanding engineering solution to a problem solved by simple rubber engine mounts !

Heck, my 4 cyl Toyota is as smooth as any big-engine classic.

Bottom line, those multi-cylinder monsters, along with their radiator shutters, were another example - obsolete before they rolled out of the factory!

But all this does not solve the problem asked by the guy who started this particular "thread" /what to do about shutters on classic-era big Packards.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think operating radiator shutters are neat !

So again, my recommendation is "bite the bullet". Buy that new expensive Sylphon ( as Owen notes, they will probably last longer than we will! )

And make sure the shutter mechanism is propertly set up and lubricated. Yes, there is a powerful "return-to-closed" spring in there - help it do its work by making sure the system is set up properly.

And add an "in line thermostat to your radiator hose, to insure quick and stable warm up.

Then drive the heck out of that pre-war "big" Packard ! When properly maintained, they are a delight to drive.

THE 'PINES-WINTERFRONT / SYLPHON SHUTTER SYSTEM

I never understood the engineering logic for adopting that monstrosity. Expensive to manufacture, difficult to set up properly. And then what? Your motor takes too long to warm up even in mild temps.

The worst thing you can do to a car motor is run it before it has reached full operating temp - at least 160 degrees "f".

And it wasnt just Packard that utilized the shutter system.

The pre-war Packards had outstanding cooling systems, far greater cooling capacity than necessary to handle even the most extreme conditions of temperature and speed.

That's the problem ! Even with the shutters tightly closed, there is so much water, and significant "leakage" of "bleed air" around the blades, that in the colder climes the car's motor never gets a chance to warm up properly.

That being said, I do think the system is neat! So I did spend the money over the years to keep the system operationa.

Yes - those Sylphon thermostats that operate the shutters are available - but wow...the price! Look at the bright side; they typically are durable - I've only replaced two in the sixty years that I have been driving pre-war "big" Packards on a regular basis.


Whether you decide to keep your Pines-Winterfront shutter system operational or not, I strongly recommend using modern ordinary "pellet" style thermostats - these block off any water flow coming out of the motor block, which means your motor will warm up quickly - again, the faster you warm it up, the better it will run, and the longer it will last.

Here's how I do it on my pre-war "big" Packards. I buy a pair of ordinary "small block Chevy" water outlet tubes. (you'll need two sets if you have a Packard Twelve - "standard" and "Super" eights need just one set, obviously.

Put the thermostats in and bolt em together - of course you want to be sure that the thermostats are facing the correct orientation when you put them in your upper radiator hoses.

Yes - you will be adding a restriction - the volume of water that can get thru a modern "pellet" type thermostat is less than just a straight piece of radiator hose.

Big deal - in the summer, I have found if the air temp. is much over 105 degrees, I have to keep my speed under 60 mph ( or simply remove the "blockage" and install a straight piece of radiator hose if I just HAVE to go faster when it is really REALLY hot....!)

FEBRUARY 9 thru 11 2018

PACKARDS INTERNATIONAL will be having their 55th National Annual National Membership meet in Newport Beach, California (Hyatt Hotel).

This is a new (and from the looks of it) vastly improved location & Packard-centered events, including great Caravan tours on Fri 9th, with probably largest collection of Packards on Planet Earth both on the Fri. drives & the show on Sat. Major swap meet on Sunday.

Fri 9th big Caravans planned for trips all over the area to various collections. You might even get a chance to see at least one 1934 Super Eight - even get rides if you ask nicely !

Yeah - yeah, I know - been watching this forum "on the side" - some of you don't care much for the pre-war "heavy" stuff. Not to worry.

You are not alone - who remembers the famous outburst, in the late 1930's, of one of the new members of Packard's Board, who, when taken on his first tour of the facilities, and shown how separate production was, screamed out "that g-d damned Senior stuff".

Cheer up - Packards International doesn't discriminate - they welcome ALL Packards ! ( some of us love em all - in addition to a certain '34 Super Eight, you MIGHT get to see a certain '51 "250" convert., sort-of-stock (well, actually, pretty damn "original" except the rear panel "bottle openers" were removed & the holes filled in many years ago, and under the hood, a '53 motor from a wrecked ambulance.) ( sorry - cant bring either one of them; we sold both our '53 Pats. years ago.)

Quote:
=======================================================

I couldn't disagree more. Steve has the right idea - given the amount of salt so many "snow-country" highway depts. dump on their roads.

One thing has changed over the years "for the better" - vastly superior corrosion-proofing when the cars were new. Our cars don't have that.

Even with modern corrosion proofing, cars in the snow-belt suffer horrific permanent damage - just not quite as fast. And who cares ? Arent they just throw-away cars anyway. Different situation with our Packards - we may technically "own" them, but aren't we really just "custodians"...especially, if we are as lucky as Steve who says he has a nice one !

Even ONE drive with salt sprayed all over the car is not good. Starts the corrosion process.

Best thing you can do, if you HAVE to drive a car on salted roads, is THOROUGHLY steam clean it - and I mean THOROUGHLY....after EVERY salt-infested drive. But "the cure is worse then that disease".

Well, not exactly - but the fact is, steam cleaning, meaning injecting really hot water under pressure into every part of the underside, is not good either.

Steve has the right idea - only thing wrong about his post is he didn't post us a picture !

for KD & BH

Did you put any money on your bets? And if so, for what purpose ? Discuss please ?

If someone will tell me how, I will post photos of my '34 Super Eight 1103 before and after restoration.

Quote:
====================================================

My mistake - you are right and I was wrong!

As you correctly point out, in todays use of language, ALL things are "classic" ! Please forgive me for being so far "behind the times".

I should know better - Wife & I just got back from the grocery store where we picked up (each product's labels were quite clear) amongst other things, some "CLASSIC" macaroni salad", some CLASSIC" shoe laces, Lay's CLASSIC Potato Chips, and Signature's CLASSIC Potato Salad.

Fewer and fewer products and services are NOT called "CLASSIC" - in fact, even dictionaries printed in recent years confirm the modern trend as to how correct you are and how mistaken I was to discuss this.

There WAS a time when the word "classic" was defined as something "unique, of first rank, representing the highest standards of quality and elegance". A design theory in which "form follows function", so that a headlight, a grill, a fender, a running board on a car - each part separate and defined by its function.

I have to "get with the program"

Bottom line - I need to wake up and get with the times.

[quote] DrMorbius wrote:

. . . Packards are the most reliable classic motor cars ever built. quote]
.........................................

May I respectfully but forcefully disagree with your above statement ?

I believe it can be proven that ALL Packards are reliable, certainly amongst the most reliable ever built, NOT JUST THE CLASSIC PACKARDS.

Yes, you can argue that because the CLASSIC Packards had two ignition coils, two fan belts whereas the ordinary less-expesive Packards had only one, maybe if you were discussing really badly maintained cars...the classic Packards might keep running for a while under some circumstances that the non-classic Packards could not.

I don't "buy" that argument. Just because some folks let their cars go to the dogs, is no reflection on the reliability built into the car.

Be assured if you let a classic Packard go to the dogs, it will eventually not be reliable!

The simple fact is, Packard did not make most, if not all of the key parts of a car that make a car reliable.

Brake equiptment, bearngs of all sizes & shapes, hydraulic, gasoline and radiator hoses, distributors, fan belts, ignition coils, starter motors, generators, wiring, dash instruments - electrical controls - the list goes on and on.

To suggest that the starter motor or generator or the attached relays of a non-classic Packard, even those excellent little Packard six or eight cylinder cars, are any less reliable than the starter motor or generator of a classic Packard, simply tells us how little you know about what makes ALL Packards such great cars.

Bottom line - given half a chance with decent maintainence, ALL Packards are "amongst the most reliable cars ever built".

PackardDon wrote:

"so adding overdrive without changing the rear end will make a huge difference to the top end without changing the off the line at all"
==================================================

Yes and no ! Depends on the Packard ! In the case of the pre-war six cyl. Packards, they simply didn't have enough torque to push their bodies thru the air at much over 75-80. No matter what the gear ratio, no way to get around the laws of physics.

Of course re-gearing thru installation of an overdrive is the way to go to improve utility of ANY pre-ear Packard.

The slightly larger 280 cu. in "120" series could probably get up to about 85, the so called "Standard Eight" ( 320 cu. in) was good for ninety, with a properly re-geared Super Eight ( 384 cu in) easily breaking 100.

Packard did a publicity stunt when the "Twin Six" was introduced for 1932 production - ( car supposedly bone stock ) ( my suspicion is they took out of parts inventory & installed the earlier 3.2 rear end gear set that they'd TRIED to promote on the earlier "Speedster" series.

The '32 Twin Six easily "beat a golf ball" - my recollection of what I read was that the golf ball was clocked at 122 mph - the Packard about 4 mph faster.

But don't expect that out of a Packard "six" or "120" no matter how you re-gear it! ( yes..I know..our "36" Packard 120's speedometer had numerals up to 120...! )

Point of all this - don't set folks up with the smaller-motor Packards to be disappointed!

All Packards were great cars for the money, they met or exceeded anything else in their respective price classes.

But again, do not expect a smaller-engine Packard can violate the laws of physics & deliver what the big ones could.

True, anything that will bring the engine rpm down at a given higher speed, will improve the performance; Packards were deliberately designed to give their maximum useable power (torque) at fairly low engine rpms. This holds true of ALL Packard motors of the pre-war era.

With highway speeds now up around 70 mph or even more, of course re-gearing ANY Packard is going to yield rich dividends in increased utility; much easier on everything that goes 'round' from the fan blades on back !

So if you gear ANY Packard so that the entire drive line is spinning at a engine speed "thinking" it was doing 40 mph, so that its road speed is, say 70 mph, it will be a far nicer, peppier car at that 70 mph than a stock-geared one would be. For the simple reason the "stock" gearing will have that Packard motor of ANY series spinning way faster than its max. power output.

Again, the problem is raw shaft axle power. Simply put, the bigger and more powerful the motor, the faster the car it is in can push thru road, tire, and air resistance.