Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Pete: You have been saying for a long time that there is a difference in frames between the 1938 Packard V12 and the 38 Super Eight.

How about posting some proof, ie such as measurements of the main frame rails on both frames in question. Frame rail heights and frame thickness.

The numbers that you might post must be numbers that are confirmable from two different sources.

John F. Shireman

John,

During the debate about RHD V-12 Packards in the thread titled "Re: Some Packards and others Down-Under" in the General Forum Peter Toet posted the following:
Quote:

Hi John:

In answer to your question about tech. specs, perhaps you are aware that the Packard Company wanted its salesforce to be well-educated on the product. So each year the factory published a SALESMAN'S DATA BOOK which was pretty inclusive.

In the case of the 1938 model year, these specs. are found in the last chapter ( Chapter Eight ) entitled DETAILED MECHANICAL SPECIFICATIONS. You can also see the extent of the differences in '37-39 Packard Super Eights and Twelves by looking thru the frame, brakes, and suspension components sections of the PACKARD PARTS BOOK for the respective years that eights and twelve cyl. cars were produced.

The laws of physics were taught in engineering schools, even in those days ! The heavier, the more powerful, and the faster car required heavier, more competent suspension and more powerful brakes! It wasn't "rocket science" then, and it isnt today!

I am puzzled about this statement that there was a 750 lb diff. between the weight of a Packard V-12 and a Super Eight motor - my recollection is that is the difference in weight of the assembled car ( ? ? ? - cant recall the details any more). I doubt if in the case of the motor itself, if the difference was half that much.

The "Super Eight" was, except for carb. and induction, pretty much the same engine as introduced in the mid 1920's, so it is much less efficient than the Packard V-12 designed later, with light-years more advances in technology. Thus the Packard V-12 is MUCH lighter in terms of ITS cubic inches, than the eights were.

So, while the frame, brakes, wheels, suspension components, etc., of the Packard V-12 was heavier, this appears to relate more to the much greater power potential, than the weight of the power-plants themselves - for example, the "swept effective brake lining" area of the Twelves was half again larger than the eights ( which is logical and good basic engineering practice...you go faster with a heavier more powerful car, you need much bigger brakes to stop it....!

I should have added, in my comments above (in response to John's curiosity and others commenting about his question about differences between Packard V-12's and Super Eights), that yes, it is correct that the TRANSMISSIONS were the same.

The reason Pacakrd could get away with the same transmission for all of its "big" cars, in spite of the substantial power output differences, is simple.

Of course all other things being equal, the more raw power you put thru a drive train, the heavier the parts need to be.

But they are not equal ! The fact that the more cylinders you have, the SMOOTHER the power output! This, for gear train design, reduces the need for additional strength.

As a side-note, Cadillac engineers, as was the case with Packard, were able to demonstrate it was perfectly safe to use the same transmission in their 1930's era products, in spite of the equally vast power differences between their eights, their twelves, and the Cadillac V-16.

Of interest on the much greater power output of the V-12 - take a look at the "U joint" flanges on the back of a Packard V-12's transmission and drive shaft, and compare these with those of the "Super Eight".

And, yes, I believe the Gemmer steering gear is the same on all "Senior" Packards.

Peter: It seems that Peter Tote had already answered my question that I asked you.

Bill Mitchell in the AACA forum about two years ago posted the frame measurements for the Super Eight and Packard 12 frame, which I recall are the same numbers that Peter Tote posted.

I knew the answer before I asked you the question. As I recall in the AACA form you seem to make a lot of claims about Packard 12's which in some cases were shall we say were highly inflated.

John F. Shireman

John:

I am confused. You said you knew the answer before you asked me ? May I inquire ? Your question to me appears to be directed to WHERE I get my info. from. How could you possibly know that ? You been crawling around under my Packard Twelve lately? Or browsing thru my papers & copies of old Packard stuff ?

By the way, who is this "we" that believes I in some way "inflated" Packard Twelve info. What info ? What technical details? PRECISELY are you referring to ?

You have a mouse in your pocket who also is unhappy that Packard had different lines of product, for different price classes, and different performance requirements ? Tell me more about who this "we" is, so we can discuss in further detail specifically WHAT technical details, or where I got them from, remain unclear.