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Valve Lifters & Tappets
#1
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Jim L. in OR
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Hello all,

I've finally been able to get to the noisy valve train on my '51 200 Deluxe with a Service Engine replacement being a 327 5 main cast in 1954.

Everything has gone well except that I've got one hydraulic lifter with the cylinder stuck in the tappet. The plunger came out OK but the cylinder did not. Before I ruin what may very well be a good lifter is there any "tricks" anyone can offer? As the lifter plunger seems to have good kick-back inside the stuck cylinder, should I still try to get the cylinder out?

Thanks in advance -

Jim

Posted on: 2014/9/10 15:41
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#2
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Wesley Boyer
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Hi Jim L.
A few of us has been down that road, check out my link, I was able to get one out but not the other.
http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/mod ... =ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0
Also some body else had made a clamp that fit on the guide and was able to remove it from the engine, if I see it again I will post for you.
Wes

Posted on: 2014/9/10 20:33
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#3
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Jim L. in OR
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Thank you Wes, for the benefit of your experience. I'm pretty sure that it was at least one of the causes of the tapping. Every lifter but the stuck one tested out beautifully with the "kick-back test". And actually, the stuck one seemed to have the right kick back as well. I was hoping for a dirty lifter to be the cause of my problems but I'm beginning to think that's not the case.

I also had a lifter with the exact opposite situation. When pulling the lifter, not only did it come out easily, it was coated with oil and there seemed to be space enough to wiggle the lifter in the tappet bore. Something tells me that shouldn't be the case. Perhaps that signals a broken tappet? After reading through all the threads, I'm beginning to think I've opened a real can of worms.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 1:56
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#4
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Wesley Boyer
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Jim L.
If memory servers me correctly, those lifters are hand made and paired up as they are being made. So if someone swapped any of the inner parts that would be a good reason the lifter got stuck. I looked last night but couldn't find where someone else had the same problem and made a clamp and was able to remove his stuck lifter. I hope somebody can point us to that topic.
Good luck.
Wes

Posted on: 2014/9/11 9:56
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#5
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Owen_Dyneto
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If memory servers me correctly, those lifters are hand made and paired up as they are being made

Correct - as with all Wilcox-Rich lifters of that type, whether in Cadillac, Packard or others, they are individually hand-selected for fit and not keeping them matched generally will result in less than ideal performance.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 10:08
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#6
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Jim L. in OR
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Hi Wes,

I found the thread that included someone making a clamp to hold the tappet or cam follower. By using the thread you posted above, I found another link to the thread about how (I wish I could remember his name) designed and built the tool I think you're talking about. It looked to be a great tool but even if I had a machine shop full of the right equipment, I wouldn't know how to make one.

I did find the rest of your posting very interesting and very helpful in trying to navigate through what would be a very simple chore. I knew the lifters and plungers were matched pairs and got excellent proof when I pulled the lifters out of a spare engine I have. When I tried to make "good lifters" out of the bunch of bad ones I had, I quickly discovered that the plungers that would slop around in one cylinder or lifter body would not even begin to go into others.

Thank you again Wesley, for the help and insight.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 14:21
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#7
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Jim L. in OR
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Thank you O_D for your help with this mess.

As I mentioned in my response to Wesley's post, I knew the plunger and lifter body were not interchangeable but I had no idea that the plunger, body, and tappet or cam follower were all of a piece and could not be mix and matched. That does explain why I found that one lifter body slopping around inside the cam follower or tappet.

This has me more than a little concerned. If I did have to replace a lifter, it sounds like I would also have to replace the cam follower or trust to luck that the new lifter would not be too large or too small but just right when inserted into the tappet?

That could be a real challenge when doing a valve job or even a rebuild. I can see I should have started this earlier in the Summer, but that's just not the way my life is working these days.

But thank you once again O_D for your help and experience in this. I believe Wesley just buttoned everything back up and then replaced the "ticking" engine with the rebuilt engine that was original to the car While the original engine to this car is long gone (this is the engine with a blank pad) I do have an unmolested 288 for Automatic Transmissions that I could swap out. But it's an unknown and this engine is otherwise so good: no smoke, no leaks and the oil level on the dipstick never changes and when I had a mechanical oil pressure gauge mounted, the oil pressure zoomed up to 40 psi and didn't change until the engine was turned off.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 14:42
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#8
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JD in KC
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Hope I'm not showing my ignorance, but I was also under the impression that the 'matching' was only with the plunger and the hydraulic lifter body. I don't see how the cam follower would matter in the question of hydraulic integrity. I replaced 7 cam followers and 1 hydraulic lifter on my '50. I reused 15 existing hydraulic lifters after thoroughly cleaning them. There was no opportunity to buy 'matched hydraulic lifters/cam followers' that I'm aware of. The engine runs very well (and quietly).

Let me know if I got it wrong.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 15:42
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#9
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Owen_Dyneto
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JD is of course correct and I corrected my earlier statement - it's the hydraulic plunger and hydraulic body that's the hand-fit component pair, not the hydraulic assembly to cam follower. Sorry for the confusion - senior moment.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 16:12
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Re: Valve Lifters & Tappets
#10
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Jim L. in OR
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My thanks once again to JD & O_D for clearing that up. I think I'll try the expansion nut idea in the other thread and a little heat (I've got a paint stripper gun that puts out plenty of heat) and see if I can get the lifter body out. However, I'm concerned that if I get too crazy and really score up the interior of the lifter body in a futile attempt to remove it I'll lose the option of just stuffing the plunger back in, re-install the rest of the now clean lifters, sew the patient back up and cross my fingers. I'ts too close to the end of the season to pull a major operation. Any thoughts on that?

Regardless, I will, after making sure all the valves are moving correctly, see about getting my spare 288 running and if it runs quiet and smoke free and the 327 in my running '51 is still noisy, I'll at least have the option of an engine swap

I just don't want to make the problem worse than it was before I started as the engine really ran well, had plenty of power and no oil consumption in evidence.

One last question. What would be the cause of the one lifter that appeared to be loose in the tappet. before I removed it, I could move the complete lifter assembly back and forth in the tappet bore like a loose tooth. Only one like that so I sense that ain't good. I just want to know how bad.

Again, my thanks to Wesley, O_D and JD in KC for helping me through this.

J.

Posted on: 2014/9/11 16:57
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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