Packard Forum Index » Modification Discussion

I have one word to say about the whole disc versus drum fussing: puddles. I hate cars that change lanes by themselves because half the brakes flooded out.


And at the end of the day, it's 'Murrika and people get to do what they want with their stuff, including their old cars, classic or otherwise. I'm not a fan of the tuner kids or the hoopdie guys, but they're Car Guys and they're doing Car Stuff, and I can support that. That includes Chebbie engines, disc brakes and chopped tops. Not a fan, but it is what it is.


Besdies, there are better things to fight about, like religion and politix . . . .

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Small world, I myself have an '05 Audi but, it's an A4 3.0 Cabrio. Bought it back when it was about two years old but, still have it. It was next to an S4 Cabrio.. luscious black with red leather. My wife grimaced and proclaimed I was lucky to get what I was getting. Brilliant road cars but, VERY needy ladies. Often thought about getting one of those 4.2 V-8 ground pounders but, so much to go wrong if they weren't maintained just right.

I like many shake my head on the disk/drum debate. I'll be helping my father replace the rear drums on his Toyota Tundra this holiday. Still relevant on the back two wheels.. four corners?? maybe not. I've driven it many times and never ended up at the bottom of a ravine, never to be seen again, they work.

My company is quite big and we have a platform called Yammer (Facebook for work). We have a channel called Gearheads. I've posted on there a few times and someone in my building reached out wanting to meet up and talk Packard's. Seems his maternal grandparents worked for Packard and met at the plant. He would like to one day get a '46-'50 fastback. During lunch he stated he knew he would have to convert one to 12V.. Why?? Have the laws of physics changed?? 6V systems worked for decades.. just need to maintain them right and not be lazy about them.

During my career I've worked with a few teams bringing new products to market and if you've never been through that process... the number of engineers, phase gates and due diligence that go into that process... it's mind boggling. Anytime I reassemble something and ponder a change I challenge myself as to why I think I know better than a team of engineers that worked countless hours validating an end product. Of course there are exceptions, i.e. Chevy Vega's etc.. but Packard's were exceptional machines and more about their mechanical prowess than sexy lines. I still think they have remained relatively untouched and think that's the reason. The factory did it right. If you want to add something the car never came with.. AC etc... so be it.

Mike

In the old days base car insurance premiums were heavily rated on horsepower. Years ago I knew someone from J.C. Taylor and he said they were losing their shirts because of the junkrods paying the same premiums as stock. They wised up and stopped insuring junkrods. Today they have junkrod insurance. Recently I read an article in an actuarial magazine that essentially said nobody knows how to set premiums on car insurance because they keep changing how they do it. Those are companies that always refused to hire me. Now they set car insurance premiums based on stuff like how many credit cards you have. They have tried to turn the game into a morale hazard thing by creating a loser class that pays more in premiums. Detroit is the most blantant case where people pay up to a million dollars for car insurance over their lifetime.

But let's look at the junkrod from a more analytical standpoint. Let's say you take your Individual Custom Eight by Dietrich down to the chop shop and have them drop in a 500 horsepower Roush engine and claim it's okay because everything else is stock. Obviously those mechanical brakes were only meant to handle 130 horsepower, and to fix that you need to chop up the frame and weld on a pick up truck suspension with fat tires and what not to create your abortion. Now you have a widow maker as illustrated below by what happens to a 106 horsepower Packard in a crash. I love the plate glass advertisement in the background.

Ultimately these junkrods are going to the crusher. Momma hide your children!

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In spite of the disparaging comments about hot rods, hot rodders and hot rodding in general, I have to give a lot - not all, but many - of those guys credit. Much of what they build, they build from piles of Ferrous Oxide that many people would have hauled off. Whereas they may not always craft works of art, the fact that they display such ingenuity and tenacity is impressive. I applaud their commitment.


I think a lot of the need and/or desire to modify one's old car has to do with what one intends to use it for. The closer it is to being a trailer queen, the more original it can and should be. The closer it gets to being a daily driver, then considering upgrades is nothing short of logical.


Your car, new or old, is yours, and how you use it is your decision. So is what you do with/to it.

Well written. I say this as a long-time admirer of Packards (I have owned three - 37, 47 and 55) and currently the owner of a hot rod (32 Ford 3-window coupe). Merry Christmas.

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Well stated Wat!

In addition, many times an older car being modified/updated will donate mechanical parts (especially engine/trans/rear axle, as well as sometimes front suspension/steering) to keep other original cars on the road.

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I am certified at 147 MPH test driving on a banked oval. I have driven thousands of different cars over many decades and many terrains and conditions in my professional career. I am a member of Society of Automobile Engineers (SAE). I have designed vehicle systems and worked at the OEM level in the automotive industry all my life. I was lead engineer for a major car corporation. I was a street racer on Woodward Avenue back in the heyday of that place. And I can assure everyone: drum brakes on all of my cars stopped them just fine– as long as the vehicles were driven sanely and the brakes were kept in proper adjustment and condition.

18-wheel trucks DO NOT have disc brakes. They have DRUM brakes. And yes, I have even driven a Peterbuilt 18-wheeler across the USA on a haul. And yes, I know how to use a "Jake-Brake" in an 18-wheeler and have used one on both California's Cahon Pass and Tehon Pass. But trucks don't STOP with Jake-Brakes... they slow down with Jake-Brakes. And 18-wheel trucks hauling up to 80,000 pounds also can't magically suddenly stop when a Honda Civic decides to suspend the laws of physics, whip over and cut the truck off without adequate braking room (this is why so many are squished on the interstates). Check out a few YouTube videos if you refuse to believe someone who merely tells you these things. And yes, trucks ARE indeed advised to go slow and use lower gears on steep hills. A very sane, safe, logical, skillful thing to do. And –surprise!– cars (including Packards) CAN also downshift to use engine braking too (whether automatic or manual!!!.. that's why they put the markings on the gear selector!). Such things are usually advised in a good car owner's manual. But, hey... who bothers to read those things– right?

Drum Brakes do NOT cause an automobile to "change lanes" because of a "puddle." And Disc Brakes do NOT make an automobile steer straight through a "puddle." Driving into puddled water–especially too fast –is the same no matter what kind of brakes you have. Avoid doing it.

It is belief in myths like these that get people injured and even killed on the highways... every day. People ought to know better by now, but they don't.

I remember vividly when I was living in Washington state (I had a house in Gig Harbor area and we got tons of rain) I witnessed a pile-up of several cars on the highway. When the blinding rain came, I slowed down while other crazies plowed right on through and even sped up! I eventually pulled off at an exit and went to a gas station.

A driver came rolling in a few minutes later with a battered, smashed-up new SUV. The driver got out and began a speech: "I just don't understand it! I've got disc brakes, 4-wheel drive, ABS and I still spun out when I hit that water!!!"

THIS kind of thinking is the essence of people somehow believing that disc brakes will magically cure everything on an old car and somehow make it "perform"... but it's all jive.

People have to drive safe and think safe rather than believe in fairy tales and think the vehicle can magically make up for bad driving and bad weather. Disc brakes–no matter what anyone may believe or argue into the ground– will not save anyone from bad driving or bad weather.

Installing disc brakes on an old car like a Packard IS a "choice"... but it is NOT "restoration" or an "upgrade." This is just wording that hides what is actually being done: customizing and modification. Call it what it is. Forums are great places to argue on forever. I'm presuming none of you is channeling Sterling Moss or driving in an endurance race. I am also presuming none of you has a time machine or that you imagine this is a discussion merely of which technology is superior to which... since there obviously is a reason why disc brakes AND airbags and ABS and electronic engine controls and other things were invented. This is despite the discussion of old cars and ignoring that the ultimate extreme thing here is to YANK your entire engine, brakes and chassis and go ALL self-driving electric!!! Why stop at just disc brakes? I am also presuming that all of you actually KNOW how to drive without your foot constantly on your brake and that you KNOW how to use your emergency (or hand) brakes. I am also presuming that no one reading this will know that I was working on developing a system called "electrorheological braking" (know what that is?) nearly 30 years ago. Skills behind the wheel obviously vary as do levels of intellect. But this is not an argument. I won't comment any further on this matter so have at it...

Very well put Leeedy. We have a sign in the shop I volenteer in. It says 'You can't fix stupid'. It is the God's honest turth in my humble opinion...I have driven 'Miss Prudence' a 1949 Deluxe with her original brakes for 10 years and never a problem. Ernie in Arizona

I remember Doug Heinmuller had a 51 convertible stick overdrive with 50,000 miles on it when he got it. It was a nice car. The original owner stored it because a valve cracked at shutdown after a long trip.

So Doug was up in Maine driving around using overdrive. At the bottom of a long grade is a stop sign. He steps on the brake and nothing happens. The system was overheated. The same thing happened to Ted Kavenagh in his 1930 Packard with mechanical brakes. He came down a hill on the Merritt and there was a traffic jam. He drove past in the median unable to stop.

Those were cars with good parts. If somebody doesn't have good parts that sort of situation can happen a little too often.

As well, if you look at the 1955 LeMans when the drum braked Mercedes couldn't stop behind the disc braked Jaguar (actually a drum braked Austin-Healey swerved into the Mercedes lane and the Mercedes couldn't slow down), you will see that is exactly the same situation that will happen on today's motorways when the monster truck dude pulls directly into your lane and slams on the brakes. It can be a matter of avoiding the loose nut behind the wheel of the other car.

I remember moving a V-12 with Billy Hirsch. He's driving his modern car 50 mph in 25 mph streets and I'm trying to keep up without getting killed. Suddenly he stops. The power brakes really weren't working very well, but I managed to bring that V-12 to a stop about two inches from his bumper.

As well, there is the sign at the top of steep hills - "Trucks must use lower gears" and heavy trucks have the engine brake that unloads the compression force at the top of the power stroke. That prevents engine runaway.