Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Hello all;

I know these things never match.....

Is it the general consensus that engine / body (stamped on frame) / and other numbers should be relatively close to each other to provide proof of originality - to the car?

Or has anyone seen engine numbers several thousand (say 7 lower) away and still been original to the car?

Is that clear??

Thanks
Dongle

I don't fully understand just what numbers you are talking about, but I'll give it a shot. The official vehicle # should be on a brass "patent plate" on the firewall, which also says Packard Motor Car Company, Detroit Michigan. It does not match any other number on the car and if the plate is lost, there is generally no way to recover the original VN. It bears no relationship to other numbers that might be found on the steering gear, frame, engine, etc.

What do you mean by body number? If you're referring to the large embossed 6-digit number enclosed by brackets on the cowl, no it doesn't match any other number. Search this forum on "thief-proof numbers" to find more.

Or are you perhaps referring to a small brass tag under the carpet in the front compartment?

Engine# should be between the starting and ending engine # for the year and model. At bit earlier than you car the engine# was also the vehicle number and they should always match, but not for 1931.

Each of these sets of numbers have their own series and should agree with the range for that particular year and model, but don't match. Records of which engine was originally installed in which car with which thief-proof number have not survived in large numbers.

Care to provide photos of the numbers you're talking about, it would easier to answer.

Sorry. I suspected when I posted that I would need to elaborate. I was trying to keep it simple...

The three numbers I immediately referred to are the engine number - embossed on its mount. A frame number embossed near the steering gear mount which I referred to as a body number - (I know its not though) and a third number embossed directly on the steering gear itself. On my 31, all are sequentially 'close' as it sits.

I did a quick look, and these were the easy numbers this afternoon. This brings up another interesting sub question, does anyone have a list of all the locations of such embossed numbers?


To provide a level of comfort about the originality of an engine, I suspect there would not be a large difference in these numbers. I know they certainly would not match.

I guess my question is, does an engine number which is substantially different cause people in the Packard world grief? For example, what if the engine number was some 7000 less than the frame number and 6500 less than the steering gear number - and yet fall within the range for 1931 engine numbers? In my mind such an engine would be, say 6 months older.

The reason is I am looking at an engine replacement, and the donor engine is some 7000 'older' than my original engine. Yes it falls within the proper 1931 engine number range.

Thanks
Dongle

An interesting question. Who's to say in the midst of the depression: would even a well heeled Packard owner pick a new and costly replacement engine should it be needed over a serviceable used but older engine out of perhaps a wrecked car.

This is exactly what has beeen bugging me. My 29 has a tag on the firewall that matches the title, a different number on the steering gear and a different number on the frame........... Have been wondering is these needed to be restamped or what. Is there any official documentation that explains the different numbers. Have not been able to fine a number on the engine.

Here's some numbers from a 1934 Eight which is an unrestored and unaltered car purchased 45 years ago from the original owner - maybe these will help you.

Motor# 375137
Frame# 375217
Steering gear# 375627
Body serial# 178237
VN 703-5XX

The particular car's vehicle number indicates it was built about 1/5th of the way thru the production run for that particular body and chassis. This was the highest production model in the 11th series, we believe that there were about 2500 of this exact model produced. Eleventh series Eight motor #s began at 374,001.

Owen_D thanks for the info, I appreciate your insight.

For everyone though, forgive me, I am not sure if I am making my question clear enough or maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

Anyway, I am considering a replacement engine - the number of the engine is quite far removed from the other numbers discussed above.


If I use Owen_D's example...

Quote:

Would Packardites have concerns if the engine number wasn't 375137 but instead, say, 379003. In this case clearly the number is far removed from the frame and steering gear number.

Will this raise red flags for those who are concerned with originality.

EDIT; and when I say red flags, I have no intention of trying to trick anyone, I am just trying to weigh the cost of a rebuild vs replacement while factoring a decline in value due to the replacement engine (I will keep the original one with the car).

Thanks for comments
Dongle

Dongle
If you can find the correct type engine, it doesn't matter. Do you have a Standard Eight or a Super Eight. There is a man in Canada who has a replacement 1931 engine for sale, Standard Eight, plus an extra block. The engine seems to have an early number on it.

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Oh, by the way, don't even bother asking about the Indian Four. I've got first dibs.

I pretty much agree with West. The number of potential purchasers who would notice a late engine # (of the correct year amd model) in an early #'d car or visa versa would be very small indeed, and those who would view it as a value detractor yet smaller, probably almost infinitesimally small.