Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

Oh, you're from Canada, eh?, Ya, thaaat's a lot of dollors, eh?.

Really though, it would be a hard book to borrow from the library, as it is 828 pages long, much important text to read through. Perhaps your period of borrowing it will convince you to buy it.

Nick: When you a asked for some reference sources about Packard and ask others questions. People like myself and others dug deep into their library of books which THEY PURCHASED to give you the answers to questions you have asked. Then when Pushbutton gives a reference sources on Packard and were they might be purchased, you come back with an answer that you are cheapskate and unwilling to make such a minor purchase realy angers me.

The information and history that I gave you about E.L. Cord came from a book that I PURCHASED cost me $50.00. Another book I have on the Classic Era written by Kimes
cost me over $100.00. So please don't complain about having to spend $44.00 for a book purchase. Sometimes when you want inforamtion you have to be willing to pay for it.


John F. Shireman

John,

There is really no reason to be irritated. I am very grateful to you for taking the time to look things up for me. When I said;

"I am a renowned cheapskate and have my reputation to consider."

and

"Interestingly the book is going for $44 Canadian on amazon.ca, so if ILL fails me I shall just swallow the financial pain and buy it!"

I was trying to make a joke by poking fun at myself, it was not my intention to cause offence or upset, however it seems that I have so I shall bow out of this forum and ask you all to accept my sincere appologies.

Nick, Don't leave the forum and you have nothing to apologize for. There is a lot to be learned here. Some of our American friends have a difficult time understanding self deprecating Canadian humour. In my case as far as being a "cheapskate" my maternal ancestors came from Yorkshire England albiet 200 years ago. Nevertheless I have been told that a definition of a Yorkshireman is that he is a Scotsman with his generosity removed. That pretty much sums up my monetary policy also. I'm pretty sure comments were well meaning. Stick around eh!

Quote:

We must be related then! I'm the same way, I'd rather give you a dollar for something that's worth $100, than pay full price!

Nick -

You asked a reasonable question about finding a good source, in print, for financial information, and you got good advice about the two best books published on Packard.

Though smaller in size and page count, and with comparatively few pictures, Ward's book is more objectively-written and paints the company history against a fuller background of what was going on in the industry/economy/culture. While the Kimes book is considered a bible by many Packard enthusaiasts (including me), Ward's book was made required reading by business schools in some unversities - released in a less costly softcover edition for that very purpose.

Understand that many of us here have participated in other forums, where some newcomers took the position that they shouldn't have to buy a book or manual, but expected us to provide all the answers. I can't speak for others, but I'm not interested in retyping the information, word-for-word, from a manual - especially one that I had to buy to get the answers I needed. Pose a similar question of any automotive library, and you'll likely be told of their research fee; but if you go to that library, you'll generally be permitted to research it yourself for much less.

It was that situation that lead to the founding and has fueled the rapid growth of this site. Many of us (including John Shireman) have generously donated scans of original material from our personal libraries, plus plenty of work in putting addtiional features together, and field questions in these Forums - without expecting one dime in return. My position is that if I donate time and info, maybe others will too, and maybe they will contribute something "new" to me that I can learn from.

If you stick around, I think you'll find that most of us here are working class folk, who are working on our hobbies with a very limited budget. Money is always an object. Yet, what doesn't take money still takes a lot of time.

I hope you can see why your reluctance to purchase a book may have irritated an old sore spot, but not overreact to the valid points that John made.

Let me just add a though, and I'm already bracing myself for the criticism that I'm fairly certain will follow, hopefully it won't get too personal. Before the days of free information on the Internet, the national Packard clubs sought out good copies of owners, shop, service letters and parts manuals and laid out the money to have decent copies produced. I've got a shelf full of these that I've bought and use them regularly to help others. Now I'm sure the clubs have recouped their initial costs, but the point to consider is that by making the information available for free, we deprive these clubs of the funds for future projects which then either won't happen or will be priced to the point where we all bellyache about the prices.

Owen Dyneto--Yes, and I bought most of those reprints from those clubs and was darn happy they had gone to the bother of reprinting them for such a limited audience. Time has marched on, this thing called the internet has enabled people across the globe who have Packards, or fallen into one through an inheritance the ability to find out about the car, its care and feeding and the social network (read "club") devoted to it, many whom are isolated from the greater old car world we all are in.
The picture reproduction quality of many of the reprints was limited by the technology of the day. With my $50 Hewlett-Studebaker scanner I can scan my original literature to a quality that never exsisted in those reprints. This is one case where the technology has improved things for the owner/restorer. I wish the PAC would oublish, either on paper or over the internet their particular version of "correct" for my car, and any other Packard model they judge. Follow the example of the Lincoln club, take the parts book exploded diagrams and put legends and arrows pointing to everything in the illustrations stating "body color", "Matte black" "silver cad plating" etc. I'd let go of $50 for that, if it remained contant and prevented me from having to re-paint parts after the restoration.

Well you all know my opinion on having the information available for free. If I didn't feel that way, then well this site wouldn't be here.

I think this website provides a good source of information for people that are skinny in the wallet and would rather spend their money on fixing their Packard(s). That being said, I have bought bound reprints, even though I have had access to the electronic versions via this website. Sometimes having a printed, bound version in hand makes for a more enjoyable read than a on-screen, or loose-leaf printed version.

The main purpose of this website was to provide a resource of original PMCC generated information that falls within the public domain. Because while I think it great that the National Clubs sell printed versions. That really doesn't help you if you don't have that piece of content in your hand when your Ultramatic starts to act up, and you can't get your car out of the driveway, which is blocking your wifes car in. Being able to quickly get online, print out a page or two, and take those out to the car and not worry about getting those pages all greasy is priceless.

Where I think the Clubs need to focus is providing new content for Packard owners. Things like PI's (Packards International) Engine Room judging guide is a great example of that. Also Brian's 55-56 STB and SC index available on the V8 Club website is another great piece.

Other entities (such as Faxon Auto Lit) have already started producing high-quality reprints of the Service Manuals, Parts Books, etc. The content that they sell does not provide any revenue for the National Clubs in anyway. So I do not think that this website is sucking the coffers dry at any of the National Packard Clubs.

Too my its all about Status Quo. If you just maintain the Status Quo, then nothing changes, good or bad. While I don't think of this site in competition to the national clubs. I hope they see that people really want this information online and available, and open their libraries to the general public. Once they do that, then they can focus on producing new, interesting, original content that people would be happy to pay for.

This is just my

Owen_Dyneto -

With all due respect (and nothing personal at all), the reprints you've cited were accomplished decades ago. However, what did the clubs do with the proceeds from such projects?

Except for a few additional volumes of the Service Counselor and reprints of some minor marketing brochures, I've seen nothing new in terms of printed matter from PAC. The only Service Letters I saw available from PAC were for prewar models - when a gaping hole has existed, for decades, in terms of Service Technical Bulletins for postwar cars. I don't believe for a NY minute that the club could not have pulled that material together and had it reprinted.

Through my own private efforts, over the years, I assembled a complete set of photocopies of STBs AND Studebaker Service Bulletins on the V8 cars, but was lucky enough to also acquire a nearly complete set of original STBs and General Service Bulletins dating back to 1952, plus assorted parts bulletins - all from a single estate. Yet, I will probably put everything except the V8 stuff on eBay, next winter, to people who are still looking for original material.

Meanwhile, how much inventory of Centennial souvenirs is PAC still sitting on?

For a variety of reasons, I couldn't see supporting PAC with my dues any longer and let my membership lapse last year. IMHO, that club has fallen out of touch of what Packard owners need from a club. Never mind getting the scoop on a top-secret project to produce V12 Packards for 1965 (that never happened), "tea and scones" just don't cut it.

Yet, in spite of all that has transpired, know that, over the years, I had purchased not only the '55-'56 material that PAC had reprinted, but manuals for earlier series, from which the V8 cars were derived. However, I'd never copy a reprint and upload it here. As best as I can tell, only original material has been scanned and donated here.