Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

Quote:

You need to know that these things that Packard is accused of doing that seem weird or wasteful today and to people outside of the car industry, in fact were not at all unusual. On the contrary, outsourcing bodies throughout much of Packard's history was a very normal procedure.

Yes, some of today's car companies make big statements about their capabilities-especially those from overseas. Some of it is true... some is puffery. But with computers and robotic assembly, sure, a lot is possible. It ought to be!

And while we're talking about what seems to be genius and waste by various car companies, there are some facts to consider. Ford outsourced bodies and cars all during the 1950s and even into recent years. What, you say, were these cars? Mustang convertibles for many years were built by outside vendors. In more recent years various Ford products were built by Mazda. Like the Probe and Capri and last Cougar. Back in the 1950s, Mercury station wagons were built by Mitchell-Bentley's Ionia Division (if you never heard of M-B, think of 1953-54 Packard Caribbeans because that's who converted them too!). GM used M-B for many Buick station wagons and later, Buick, Olds, Pontiac and others (and for anyone crying out- Oh no, you're wrong they had Fisher Body... just look on the door sill step plate and you'll likely see "Body By Ionia" rather than "Body By Fisher"). And back on the subject of Ford using outsiders... who do you think built the Continental Mark II??? Mitchell-Bentley.Yes, same folks who did the first two years of Caribbeans. And yessss, Ford lost money on every one of those too. But they are still some of the most memorable FoMoCo products ever. How about Toyota? Who do you think built the Celica convertibles? American Sunroof Company (ASC) and my friend, the late Heinz Prechter. They had plants in different locations-one of which was in SoCal where a small assembly line existed and hardtops were cut into convertibles. ASC also did Camaro and Firebird convertibles for GM. Bottom line: none of this was unusual practice in the auto industry. ASC did the retractible hard top Mitsubishi 2000GT Spyder too. And more.

RE: Packard's need for a large facility on Grand Blvd... most car plants in Detroit's glory years were huge. They had to be. Ever see old Dodge Main? Or Ford Highland Park? Or Ford Rouge? Everything was pretty much done indoors-despite (or because of) the climate.

And the Packard plant on Grand Blvd. produced much more than merely cars. Also remember that much of the facility was ballooned during wars-especially World War II. Once it was there... it was there. Yes, not all of it was being used, but if they needed it, they had it.

AND some of that huge space made money. A good-sized area was actually leased to Briggs and others. Of course all that space is also the reason that Packard once had parts inventories going back decades earlier and could often supply their wealthy customers with replacement items that no auto parts store would stock. Sadly, these large inventories were...uh..."disposed of" in the 1950s.

Thanks for the information that included the reference to Mitchell-Bentley. I was previously familiar with their work with all of the Big Three when it came to relatively low volume station wagon bodies, both wood and steel. I first came across the company when they produced the beautiful 1957 Buick Cabellero four door hardtop station wagon bodies.

Thirty-five years ago I bought my 1967 Corvette coupe which has an A.O. Smith body, the company that took over from Mitchell-Bentley in the early Sixties. Depending on the model year, A.O.Smith built and fully trimmed about half of the 1965-7 Corvettes and allegedly, their quality was a bit better than the Body by Chevrolet (no Fisher for Corvettes) ones. No matter which company produced the bodies, all were finally assembled in St. Louis. I was unaware of M-B producing the Caribbeans or the Panthers.

According to the Ward book on the fall of Packard, the majority of new owner complaints, if they had them, was over the bodies on their cars, not the mechanical issues. When Briggs sold Packard on the economies of farming out body production to them with the new 1941 Clippers, the die was cast. Soon, after the war, Briggs wanted more money to produce the bodies than the Packard Board thought they would have spent, had they retained the ability at East Grand. Unfortunately, the space and tooling had already been re-dedicated to functions other than body production.

I looked up Mitchell-Bentley on Google and was surprised by the size and diversity of their operations, just as you have noted. Ten thousand workers at their high point. But as the builders of the Mark II Continentals, then they have my unlimited respect.

Hello Leedy:

Thanks for setting the record straight and keeping everyone focused on the facts.

For anyone interested in Mitchell-Bentley you can read more here and also see some wonderful photos of their work with Packard and others.http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/mitchell_bentley/mitchell_bentley.htm

As that article mentions, William F. Mitchell used to have a private car collection on company property in Owosso, MI - this was 91 miles away from EGB and at a time before the freeways. Anyway, in the mid and late 1990s I organized two tours to the collection for Motor City Packards and I learned something new each time I went.

Leedy; Again, thanks. I was at EGB earlier today giving a tour to a friend visiting from out of town. The building as deteriorated even more since your bus tour last summer during the 2013 PAC National. Concord Street is now blocked off north of EGB (nearly to Harper Rd.) because of the risk of debris falling from the top floor.

Quote:

Ahh... you are most welcome (BTW... that's "Leeedy" with 3 e's)!

RE: your M-B reference link... Perhaps you do not know that your reference link goes to a page for which, frankly, I supplied much of the information. I have been keeping up with Mitchell-Bentley since the 1950s when I lived in Michigan. I have attached a photo of my 1950s company prospectus (the cover opens both left and right) and a special Mitchell-Bentley perpetual calendar given to top automotive customers back in the 1950s. Of course I have more of this kind of stuff. So I know about them the same way I know about Packard... and I know about Creative Industries of Detroit.

RE: the M-B collection of cars... Yes, I am well aware of the M-B museum that once existed. While I know what happened to a few of the cars (like their Balboa clone and "whatzit" so-called "Mitchell Panther"-it wasn't), I have no idea what happened to the rest. And while M-B claimed to have done the Panthers in total, they actually only trimmed them out. Creative Industries of Detroit did the rest-as clearly stated in the Spring, 1984 issue of The Packard Cormorant magazine which contained the first accurate and complete history on these cars.

RE: the Packard plant, tours, etc... Yes. When we were there I was frankly reluctant for anyone to get off of the busses. But it was what it was. And anyone who was listening may recall that I asked extreme caution regarding the section of the building at the corner of Concord and East Grand Blvd. I could see that the wall was already buckling near the top at that time. I took photos of the bulge and predicted it would not last to the winter. Sounds like I was right. And frankly, two friends (former employees at Creative who occasionally visit the Packard Plant) told me that scrappers had somehow performed the miracle of removing some steel reinforcements for the roof and top floor (how'd they do that?). So I am not at all surprised to hear that Concord is now barricaded. A lot of insanity and greed continues at the site... and that is very sad.

Attach file:

---

  (163.92 KB)

Quote:

You are most welcome! And yes, I know all about M-B's involvement in the Buick Caballero too. What you may not know is that Creative Industries of Detroit was also involved in these cars too! AND the original and successive Corvettes (and yes, I have original photos).

Likewise, I have also owned several Corvettes over the years, beginning with a 1958 and ranging up to a C6. Fan of Corvettes almost as much as I am a fan of Packards. ALMOST. On the PAC National Meet Detroit bus tour last summer, I pointed out a lot not far from the Packard Plant where an original very early 1953 Corvette sat for something like 20 years... unloved, unwanted... and I begged my dad to let me buy it. I understand it was eventually hauled away. Yes. These things once happened in Detroit.

Another fact that I talk about in my Packard Concept Car presentation is that toward the end in the mid-1950s, Packard had two "skunkworks" in Detroit. One could even say four if one counted the advanced engineering facility over on East Grand Blvd. and the facility out in Warren at the proving grounds. But the first two were: 1.) On East Outer Drive at Creative Industries of Detroit and 2.) On East Forest Avenue at a nameless building that was formerly a Detroit Edison substation. Ask me how I know.

FInally, Briggs really didn't start a totally new landmark with Packard as far as outsourcing bodies. Numerous companies including Henney, Dietrich, Darrin, Le Baron and so many others also supplied bodies to Packard, albeit on a lesser number. That was the way things once worked.

And as a final six-degrees-of-separation thing... I wonder how many Packard fans know that Ray Dietrich designed Gibson guitars after the days of his work for PMCC?

What I would have given to be a closer, or first-hand, observer to all these artistic and engineering innovations in that Golden Age of Detroit. Instead, I was stuck as a ten year old in St. Louis, then the second largest concentration of automotive industries in the U.S. GM had three plants producing cars, trucks and Corvettes; Ford made all the big Mercuries there, and Chrysler was about to spring its mid-sized car lines. But none of these plants produced the ideas that turned into new car designs like the Detroit area did. That must be part of the allure people like me have for plants like Packard and River Rouge, buildings like GM's old headquarters building on Grand, and the thankfully-saved Packard Proving Grounds.

In my travels I have observed that there are mighty few car plants that have not been completely re-done over the past twenty years or so. Some that still bear traces of the past (e.g. VW's Wolfsburg, Opel's Russelsheim and Ford's River Rouge) harken only to just a bit of the ways things were done before efficiency and economy became the benchmarks that today's competition requires. Other plants have been completely relocated and rebuilt to the point that they are unrecognizable to a worker from thirty years ago.

If Packard or Briggs had the metal and paint technology of today in past years, would more of them survived? Possibly, but Nash was dunking bodies in their Bonderizing process, and where are they today? Enamels of yesterday may have held up differently than today's water-based paints, but American society has become used to "replace it, don't preserve it" to the point that it would not matter anyway. We, who grew up when these magnificent Detroit creations were new, have some of the spirit to save what we can of that dream, drive and show them off, sometimes as a homage to those men and women who made them in the first place. There's still a bit of the spirit of those workers inhabiting my old Packard and Corvettes. I'm thankful to be able to still feel, appreciate and acknowledge it as I enjoy them.

Quote:
No.

As rusty as many of the cars of the 50s, 60s, and 70s could be, I had a couple of models from the 80s that I ran up to well past 100K on the clock, with no sign rust-through. I thought the manufacturers had learned their lesson, but I was wrong.

My 98 Monte Carlo has proven to be a rusty POS. I had to replace the radiator core support a few years ago (at 120K). The bodyman had to drill out the spot welds for the upper tie bar, but knocked the rest out with a hammer. Thr following year (and less than 10K later), I removed the lower body (rocker) moldings and I found the bottom of the front fenders gone and rear quarters rusted through. I also had to scrape and paint the floor pan, rocker and side cowl panels (with POR15) as all the spot welds and seams were festering with surface rust. I won't go into all the steel brake, fuel, and trans cooler lines that had to be repalced in recent years due to rust.

ELPO dip or e-coat is simply a more cost-effective way of priming. While it obviously offers savings in terms of both labor and material, it has actually caused some problems over the decades. For example, trapped air creates pockets up high on the car that never get coated, and the metal eventually rusts through - from the inside out. back in the 70s, I saw the tops of fenders of plenty of cars (regardless of brand) held together with duct tape. Yet, in more recent decades, I've seen more than a few vehicles with large expanses in the finish, where the paint had peeled off all the way down to the primer!

IMHO, the only thing that makes automotive finishes of more recent years last a bit longer is the polyurethane clearcoat, but that's only skin deep.

Over the years, I have come to believe that modern manufacturers select materials with an eye toward just making it through the warranty period.

Hello Leeedy

I've read your comments about Mitchell-Bentley's Ionia Division and Creative Industries involvement with Packard and others with great interest. Since you obviously have a wealth of knowledge of both, I hope you will consider writing an indepth, definitive text covering all their various projects through the years.

The question that's needled me for years is where, by whom and what method were the 1955 and 1956 Caribbean convertible bodies built? I associate Creative Industries with that work but would like more of an indepth explanation of the details. Given the turmoil enveloping Connor Avenue simply to build the standard bodies, one doubts if there was a special section handworking convertible bodies there.

RE: Ionia operations, I recall seeing a photo of the station wagon production line in 1958 with hardtop Buick Caballero, Oldsmobile Fiesta and Mercury Commuter and Voyager bodies altogether.......!

Steve

I've wondered about the 1955 & 1956 Caribbeans as well. The only photographic evidence we seem to have is one picture of a 1956 Caribbean hardtop receiving its fabric roof covering in an off-line operation. Whether it was at Conner or EGB is anybody's guess, but I'd still opt for Conner. No one wants to be moving bodies around any more than they have to, as it adds to the potential for damage.

My best guess is that the convertibles were framed up (sheet metal body stampings put into place inside large fixtures that held them in the proper location for welding) to create the basic shell, then were moved to an off-line location for fitting and installation of the bronze windshield frame, and then likely put back on the line to go through the paint shop.

After paint, it may have gone to another off-line location for installation of the folding top and components, but the rest of the assembly (marriage of body + chassis, installation of the front sheet metal clip, then final assembly where the interior & exterior trim is finished) could all take place on the common line with the other Packards and Clippers.

If assembly of the 1955 Caribbean started in April, that would give them roughly 60 production days to complete all 500 cars (assuming they wrapped the 1955 production at the end of June; I think it may have been a month or two later than that). Under these assumptions, that would average about 8 cars a day under straight time, and one shift per day. One car per hour at both the off-line operations for the windshield frame and the folding top would have been eminently doable.

Quote:

Thank you for your interest.

The 1953 and 1954 Caribbean bodies... I'm going from some pretty old memories now. As I recall, these were mainly built by Briggs... then given basic assembly at Packard... then shipped off to M-B to be converted into Caribbeans. They arrived at M-B with the rear of the body in red primer, fenders in black primer and hood in bare metal. You can see these images from my files in glorious color in past issues of The Packard Cormorant magazine.

The 1955 and 1956 Caribbeans... Were done at Conner. If I recall, they had a special area where the convertible top stacks and interiors were completed. This really is not all that unusual at all. Same procedure Packard followed in the 1930s-40s. Assembly line layout overviews for Conner didn't refer to models (Clipper or senior) or convertibles... only "2 Door" or "4 Door" There was also indeed a very large heavy repair area at the end of the line and several lesser repair areas scattered mainly on the southeast corner of the plant. And by the way... ah-ah-ahhh! paint was always done first... then trim... not the other way around.

RE: photos of senior Packards being assembled at Conner... You may notice that in magazine coverages at the time or even factory pics of Conner assembly work, most of the pics you will ever see were of junior cars...Clippers. Management wanted to keep the mystique higher for the senior Packards and avoided showing them under construction. Thus most 1955-56 line photos show Clippers.

I rode in the very first 1956 Caribbean prototype (or pilot production) convertible. It was actually a 1955 set up to look like a 1956. The seats were slightly different and so was part of the wiring harness. For 1955 and 1956, these cars were set up at a special "skunkworks" location for just this purpose. I have a photo of this car still with a 1955 decklid on it (this was changed later).

There were at least two outside firms that participated in the 1956 Caribbeans. One was an engineering company that made up a few odd Caribbeans (got photos, yes) and the other was Creative Industries. Creative worked together with Packard and provided facilities and expertise to set up the 1955 and 1956 Caribbeans. But they did not build the production cars as far as I know, just set them up. The final kinks (if any) were worked out at the super-stealth skunkworks. Due to the money crunch for 1956 it cost less this way.

Few people know it, but Creative did the same thing with De Lorean. First early proto I ever saw was at Creative.

RE: a definative text covering all of M-B and Creative's projects... Probably no one knows every single project they did since between these two companies there were thousands. I have decent records, though. M-B claimed they did Kaiser Dragon, Studebaker Golden Hawk, of course 53-54 Caibbean. Continental Mark II and on and on and on. They had a few company histories printed up in the 1990s, but those are very tough to get. Yes, I have one along with my items from the 1950s.

Yes, I have pics of various cars on the assembly line at M-B, but never any with mixed makes on the same line.

As for Creative's projects and history, you need look no further than the December, 1978 issue of Car Classics magazine which was sold on news stands everywhere and still sometimes turns up at swaps and on eBay. Car Classics was later merged with Car Collector magazine. Anyway, many of the projects Creative did (or participated in), including the ones for Packard like Panthers, the Request, the Predictor and more were in this photo article. This is the article that so many people are quoting today on the internet-whether they realize it or not-when they refer to Creative and their involvement with these cars. Why? Because nobody published this stuff earlier-and if anyone else knew earlier, they never said so in print.

There is one mistake in this article and this had to do with how the company was founded. Due primarily to the fact that there was apparently some slight politics involved, there was an alternative version supplied to the author about how the company came to be. That information was not altogether accurate. This was unavoidable due to how it was supplied. However the info on projects and photos were all accurate.

Creative was also involved in the MoPar "wing" cars and a jillion other projects. I am sad to see these fascinating companies gone now. Hope this at least provides a few answers.

One thing I forgot to mention ...is that while M-B was a bit on the proud side announcing who they did work for and the projects they claimed to do, Creative was sworn to secrecy on most of their projects. Thus they were extremely secretive and as far as I know, their only original history was written by me back in the 1970s. But even then it was difficult to do. I got as far as I did only because I knew people there. For instance, even then, I could only say and show so much. I knew that at the time they were working on future Corvettes, but was told not to mention anything more than the original car they worked on.

At one point I was given several thousand 8 x 10 glossy photos from Creative's old files going back to the 1940s. But on the way out of the Outer Drive building with two crates of photos, someone in charge of new contract procurement protested. His fear was that companies who hired Creative would no longer trust them if they could not keep secrets. So? I had to put the photos back and I understand they were destroyed. A crying shame (almost to the point of actual tears)... but that's what happened.

I still have a lot of rare photos that I did manage to save from Creative. And I even have a piece of the facade from the front of the old Creative headquarters building in Detroit before it was demolished (piece saved for me by friend)s. But the history that was destroyed is/was priceless... and yes, in all those thousands of photos, there were pictures of strange Packards that no Packard fan today has ever seen.