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Re: Re-installing rear brake drums
#41
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BigKev
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Curious if you have measured the gap between the edge of the drum and the edge of the backing plate when mounted and compare that to the other side. That should show if the drum in question is sitting more inboard that the other side.

Not how the axle shim stack affects that relationship.

Posted on: 2023/7/27 7:48
-BigKev


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Re: Re-installing rear brake drums
#42
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DavidPackard
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Retuning back to the first few postings from ScottG:

Post 1: As context to the above questions, my car is 1955 Clipper Constellation that is driven regularly and is in reliable mechanical condition. I pulled the drums to locate a slight grinding noise that would arise under hard braking conditions. I found that the secondary shoe was just barely contacting the inner face of the drum which I believe can be corrected with a brake shoe adjustment.

Post 6: I only removed the rear brake drums to inspect the shoes and springs after the grinding noise started. After seeing that the shoes were not visibly worn, the retaining hardware was intact and the drum braking surface was not scored, I put everything back together and adjusted the brakes per the manual. I hoped that the shoes simply needed adjusted and that a bit too much travel was allowing the shoe to move outward and contact the inner face of the drum. Unfortunately, the noise never changed although braking performance improved a bit.

Post 8: I've put about 2000 miles on the car with no problems and the previous owner was driving it as well. Unless I missed something, the car was braking fine and then starting grinding out of the blue.

Post 16 suggests new bearings, axle seals, return springs, hold down hardware, hoses, and rebuilt cylinders. Bearing clearance and brake adjustment were conducted per service manual guidance, yet the noise persists.

Post 23: Photos posted to document the locations where the drum web is contacting the shoe(s). This information is indicating one shoe is contacting near the hydraulic cylinder, while the other shoe is contacting near the star-wheel adjuster, essentially diagonal across.

Post 27: Basically the brakes were fine and then they weren't. I tried adjusting them, then replacing all the hold-down hardware and return springs, then checking axle bearing clearance (with new bearings and seals), adjusting everything again, and, most recently, disconnecting the hand brake just to make sure it wasn't pulling things out of place. So far nothing has changed the nature of the grinding one bit. At least if I had put something together wrong I could blame myself and then fix the problem.

Post 32 documents that the affected drum was ‘cleaned-up’, and there was no objectionable run-out.

My take on the symptoms would be: Since for many miles this car did not have the symptom, then the shoes are likely compatible with the drums. There was no mention of the car striking a curb, which would reduce the probability of something is bent, and that accident damage is the root cause of the symptoms.

I do like the idea that the shoes are riding too far outward. A few months ago there was a discussion of the numerous lengths of hold down pins, and the precaution to check the length before use. I have first-hand experience on a modern car where the ‘hardware kit’ contained pins that were quite a bit longer than the originals. For all of the symptoms to be explained the original springs would need to have lost a bit of free length, AND the replacement parts are such that the spring force pushing the shoes in contact with the backing plate nibs insufficient.

The design intent of that rear axle would be the outer cup of the bearing is in intimate contact with the backing plate, and that sets the spatial relationship between the axle taper and the braking components. The amount of shimming does not change this relationship unless the bearing outer cup has hit a shim instead of the backing plate. That condition would effectively hold the axle taper inboard, and lead to a loss of clearance. That clearance loss would equal the thickness of the interfering shim(s).

I would look at the old hold-down hardware versus the newly installed hardware, and I would triple check to make sure the shims are not inhibiting the intended contact between the bearing cup and backing plate.

I’ll admit we need a few different failure modes to explain the timeline of all of the symptoms. Unless an axle nut was loose, I’m thinking the initial difficulty could be a relaxed hold down spring, while later in the saga modern hardware may be the culprit, but there remains the shim interference issue.

dp

Posted on: 2023/7/29 14:14
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Re: Re-installing rear brake drums
#43
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ScottG
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Thanks to all that have thus far offered both your expertise and your insights.

Since hitting something was mentioned in David's post, I'll say that while I've not run into anything with the car, I do live in northeast Ohio where finding a smooth road is often a challenge and bent suspensions are pretty common. That said, a straight edge confirmed my suspicions that the backing plates were not damaged.

Nevertheless, the thought of something being "tweaked" has stuck with me and, thinking back to Ross' suggestion to look for a twist in the shoe, I took a closer look at the pair on my car. As I mentioned earlier, I took some measurements and found that the friction material was worn no more than 1/32" at its worst spot and a visual inspection confirmed that there was no twist in the shoe frame.

However, the measurements did indicate a wear pattern from side to side along the length of the shoes was unusual. Without trying to explain my very rudimentary attempt at modelling my measurements, I came to the tentative conclusion that something was causing the friction material to wear in a twisted pattern. Taking the theory a step further, I guessed that the "twist" worn into the shoe linings might be just enough to cause them to ride in and out along the drum contact surface and scrape along the underside of the drum.

With that in mind, I returned to the shop that turned the left drum and had him turn the right drum. (Like the left drum, he found that the right drum was in good shape and needed a minimum of material removed.) I then picked up a set of NAPA TS10A shoes and put everything back together.

Although rain curtailed a lengthy test, I did get out and around the block a few times with no noises. The hand brake is still disconnected and a lengthier test drive is needed, but I feel like I'm narrowing this down to a positive outcome. If things go well, I'm going to attempt a post-mortem on all of this to help the next guy that bumps into something similar.

Posted on: 2023/7/30 1:14
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Re: Re-installing rear brake drums
#44
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TxGoat
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If your drum had somehow gotten worn or machined to a slightly larger inside diameter on the outboard side, it could have tended to cause the shoes to ride outward when the brakes were applied.

Posted on: 2023/7/30 8:56
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