Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

This weekend I had a new diventure (that's actually a dilemma disguised as an adventure). I have a newly rebuilt 245 six that I have started 4 times...sounds wonderful. I shut it off, made some adjustments, started it back up and heard a knocking sound in the engine. I crawl under the engine while it is running and feel something hitting the inside of the oil pan. I thought maybe the oil pickup was banging the bottom of the pan. Cut the engine off, and each time I tap the bottom of the oil pan, another metallic sound echoes this on the inside. Surely, something is loose in the pan...baffle or oil pickup. I pulled the pan last night and see that the baffles are tight and oil pickup is still attached, but loosy-goosy on its pivot mount, and a gash on the top side of the pickup like the crankshaft hit it. I cannot visualize dimensionally the amount of clearance needed for crankshaft/oil pickup/oil pan, but certainly there is something not right here. Bent oil pickup? I have another old six that I could pull the pan and oil pickup from and investigate that. To deepen the curiosity, I noticed the dipstick from my 40 six had the oil level lines etched at the different point on the dipstick than my 41 six. Why would the oil level be different on these sixes, unless the oil pans are different, or perhaps one has the wrong dipstick.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had an oil pickup banging problem, and what they did to correct it.

Pick-up shouldn't even come close to the bottom on the oil pan.

O_D, I think the poster is saying the oil pick up is too high and being hit by the crank or rods. All the cross sectional views of a 120 engine in my Motors Auto Repair Manual (1935-51) show the oil pick up screen on the bottom of the oil pan. I would think the 6-cylinder engine would be the same.

I recently dropped the pan on my 115C to clean it and the oil pick up screen, but do not recall exactly how the oil pick up and tube fit. It was pretty obvious that the pieces were situated so there would be no interference and there was lots of movement of the pick up tube.

Hope this helps.

(o{}o)

All the cross sectional views of a 120 engine in my Motors Auto Repair Manual (1935-51) show the oil pick up screen on the bottom of the oil pan.

Yes, with no oil in the pan. It's a floating pickup, is it not?

O_D, You are absolutely correct. The pick up screen floats (or should) on/in the oil. Maybe his problem is over filling the crankcase which would allow the screen to be too high. He mentions different dip sticks with different markings. He did not say how much oil he put in the engine.

(o{}o)

Thanks for talking about this guys. I put 5 1/2 quarts in...one 5 quart jug and a 1/2 of a quart bottle. The specs for a 245 Six call for 5 quarts, so I would not think 1/2 quart would do anything unusual. The "stand" that the pickup mounts and floats off of seems sturdy and not bent.

Thinking about the physicals here, it seems improbable that the oil pickup could collide with anything else under there, but yet that gash in the top of the pickup is suspicious...and it seems freshly made.
Entertaining the dreaded topic of bearing failure, would a main or rod bearing failure sound and feel like your knuckles knocking on the oil pan ?
In comparing the oil pickup with another engine, if I don't find anything to blame there I would then need to start pulling bearings caps and investigate. Oh my....

....would a main or rod bearing failure sound and feel like your knuckles knocking on the oil pan ?

Maybe. You say this is a freshly rebuilt engine so I wonder why you'd be thinking about a bearing failure. Main bearing noise is a dull, low-frequency repetitive thud-type sound, more easily noticeable at idle. Rod bearing would be more of a higher frequency light metallic rapping. I can't see a relationship between either of them and the marks you see on the oil pickup. When you swing the pickup upwards can you see what engine part it's coming into contact with?

The Packard shop manual for the Six gives crankcase capacity as 6 quarts for 1937 and 1938; that agrees with Motor's data which further indicates 5 quarts for 1939 thru 1948. A 1/2 quart over or under really should be irrelevant to the problem.

Shouldn't the floating oil pick-up have a stop at the top of it's maximum travel? Maybe it worn or bent.

Make sure the baffle plate on your oil fill tube isn't being touched(contacted)by the connecting rod bolt as it passes by. I had that happen years ago on my 37 115C(it somehow was bent inward). Check to see if it clears as the rod passes it.

As a followup on this particular conversation, I found my trouble. The oil pickup one some point in its life had been (damaged) and brazed back together at the curved pipe that allows the pickup to float. During the repair, the pickup was not "set" to the correct angle, which allowed the pickup the possibility of rising so high that it could be struck by crankshaft #5. The built-in stop did not have the ability to stop the collision in this case. I cleaned up and used an oil pickup from another engine that operated at the correct angle and its stop prevented any collision with the crankshaft. End of story....quiet engine. By the way, the oil pickup does indeed rest on the bottom of the oil when all oil is removed. You can tap the pan and hear it, but floats up when oil is added. My two dipsticks are slightly different on their marking levels, but I don't think enough to cause trouble. I add 5 1/2 quarts (with filter).

Now, if I could figure out why I have violent judder when I let out on the clutch. New clutch plate, pressure plate, TO bearing, spring, resurfaced flywheel. Clean surfaces with no oils. Maybe I have some kind of tension problem with the throwout arm. ? Some people say it might take a while to seat in correctly though.