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Hello
I am sure that this has been asked at least a dozen times before but you have to remember that I am still relatively new to Packards.
Can some one please tell me "What defines a Pullman Body?"

Many thanks
Bj.

I just commented on this the other day on your post about Pullman bodies and original ownership records. I'll just repeat that part of my answer.

Pullman bodies are those made by Pullman Palace Car Co. (later Pullman, Inc.), the same company that built and operated the famous rail car coaches. The only Packard bodies that I've read of that were made by Pullman were the 1st Series Single Six 116 closed cars. That may be it, or there may be more to it - I'd suggest a read of the Kimes book which has some info on this.

It looks as thought I am going to have to look for a copy of the Kime's Book

Bj.

Bernie,
I would also be interested to know more about this topic, my car (as you know) is a 1922 126 "Sport" which was a very low volume model produced by Packard. The Kimes book says that only 400 of the Sport body was made on the 126 model although the numbers that have survived would indicate that maybe they made a few more than that. However I have been told over the many years that I have had mine that Packard outsourced the Sport bodies to Pullman. There seems to be some evidence to support this however it does not mean that there is anything special about the Pullman bodies, they are not badged as such and in the case of the Sport they are all steel. It has been suggested to me that the workmanship was inferior to the bodies made in house by Packard and having restored mine from scratch I can confirm that the original panel work was nothing special and a bit rough in places.
However I have no factual information on all of this and I hope someone else will have more information.
David.

At the end of this info on the "Coachbuilt" website (below) there are a number of references cited for further reading on Pullman. Obviously the books on automobile manufacturers will be the best sources for info on Pullman bodies on cars. I have browsed Kimes' "The Classic Era" and "Packard - a History of the Motor Car and the Company" and the only refrence to Pullman that I saw was on page 225 (1st Edition) of the latter, a statement "Though the public was not told, many bodies for the 116 and some open versions of the Twin Six were produced by the Pullman Company....". Perhaps others will browse the some of the other texts.

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/p/pullman/pullman.htm

A better source might be an article from Spring 1974 issue of "The Packard Cormorant", I should have this issue and if so will pull it out later; though posting it here would be a copyright issue, I could photocopy and mail to you. The article is " The Pullman Packards" by George W. Boon, Spring 1974, beginning on page 10.

Perhaps the best contact to make would be coachwork historian Walt Gosden who writes the regular column "Coachwork Lines" in Hemmings Classic Car (and in the CCCA Bulletin before that), he's been publishing this column for over 25 years. Walt's a member of CCCA and PAC you could find his contact info in either of the those membership directories.

On researching some genealogy records last night, I noticed this interesting find:
US Navy Ship
Type :Medium landing ship
Class LSM
Pennant LSM 336
Built by Pullman Standard Car Co. (Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.)
Ordered 5 Nov 1943

Apparently they made more than Packards during WWII.

I've learned from the editor of The Packard Cormorant that there was more information about the Pullman bodies in another article, that one by C. A. Leslie. I'll try to find my copy.

From the folks I've spoken with on this in the last few days, they all pretty much suggest that the only Pullman bodies on Packards were on the 116 and perhaps 2 or 3 Twin Sixes. The talk is that they were very cheaply made and not up to the standard of the Packard-built bodies and quickly dropped. Maybe I'll know more when I get the two articles digested.

There is are further references to Pullman on pages 420 and 421 of the first edition of the Kimes book, on page 420 it refers to Packard making chassis available to independent coachbuilders such as Brewster Fleetwood etc then it goes on to say that in the post WW1 era Packard "sublet much of its production body requirements to Anderson, Buffalo, Pullman ..........." etc.
On page 421 it talks about body building in the mid 1920's and it states that Packard was becoming disenchanted with its vendor body building program and problems and disputes arising from cancellation when bodies were not required due to reduced production.
I conclude from this that Packard sublet some of its body manufacture to a number of companies including Pullman in the era leading to the mid 1920's and these were all standard Packard bodies not be confused with the custom body work carried out by the independent coachbuilders such as Brewster, Dietrich etc.
The additional material referred to by OD will no doubt shed more light on this.

Bernie J, I dug out the first of the two articles that appeared in The Packard Cormorant on Pullman bodies and Packard, this from Spring 1984 issue written by C. A. Leslie Jr. with some interesting sidebar comments by Daniel Liebermann. The article is about 10 full pages and titled "Saga of the 116, Turbulence at the Boulevard 1920 to 1922". The article is just packed with great information, much of it substantiated with excerpts from the minutes of the Packard Board of Directors; it's much too long to paraphrase here and if you have more interest I suggest you purchase a back issue is still available though if only one or two folks want it I could make photocopies. Apparently all the Pullman bodies except for some true custom coachwork on the Twin Sixes was on the 116. The 116 chassis alone cost about 80% of the selling price of the car so scant attention was made to coachwork. The 116 was a considerable disaster for Packard which was soon corrected primarly with better and far more attractive coachwork done by Packard themselves. The article contains this chart which you may find useful, it credits the chart to Antique Automobile though it gives no issue # reference but no doubt West Peterson can dig that out.

I still intend to dig out the other article and comment on it if there is still any interest in this topic. Or are we loosing interest in this topic?

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Bernie/ OD , I don't believe that the table of Pullman built bodies is confined to the 116 cars. All of the 1922 cars listed with body numbers such as 224 for the Sport and 222 for the Coupe refer to the 1922 126 bodies not the 116 bodies.
I found another reference on page 231 of the Kimes book (that is not referenced in the index) and it states, referring to Pullman "In 1921 and 1922 this firm had orders for 13,655 bodies for all 126-133 series cars except for the seven passenger sedans and limousines"
Numbers of bodies are given that do not entirely tie in with the table, The 222 coupe is listed as having had 1550 bodies made by Pullman whereas the above table lists 850 .
OD I am sure there is limited interest in this topic but you can be sure there are at least 2 of us very interested, thanks for your input