Hello and welcome to Packard Motor Car Information! If you're new here, please register for a free account.  
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
FAQ's
Main Menu
Recent Forum Topics
Who is Online
32 user(s) are online (22 user(s) are browsing Forums)

Members: 3
Guests: 29

John Sauser, CartRich, Ram, more...
Helping out...
PackardInfo is a free resource for Packard Owners that is completely supported by user donations. If you can help out, that would be great!

Donate via PayPal
Video Content
Visit PackardInfo.com YouTube Playlist

Donate via PayPal




Advance timing??
#1
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away

Packard51
See User information
I have heard of folks advancing timing for easier starting on the 6V cars. I have a 1951 Patrician, does anyone recall or have a link to a how-to?? Thanks as always!

Posted on: 12/7 16:53
 Top  Print 
 


Re: Advance timing??
#2
Home away from home
Home away from home

su8overdrive
See User information
Hesitate to post, P-51, but first, it is retarded timing that makes an i.c.e. start more readily.

However, after an interesting conversation last week with Daytona Carburetor's 1974 founder/CEO Ron Hewitt, who lauds Hudson and Packard above others qualitatively, despite respecting Chrysler engineering and owning more Mopars 1930s-70s than either, suggests advancing our timing strains our engines more than running the factory suggested 6 degrees BTDC, in the case of my fellow 356 owners, even for those running higher compression. Because several longtime 356-engined Packards report happy running at 9, even 10 degrees BTDC, certainly no pinging, one of them running a 288 head for 8:1 compression over the factory's 6.85.

My '47 Super, per a late 1947 Service Counselor sent to all Packard dealers in the day, suggested using one of the new 327 heads for owners wanting a trace more oomph, in my case, 7.5:1.

Ron said if running okay advanced, not a hint of pinging, leave it, but in so many words, says doing so reduces engine life. Please, sports fans....Ron is hardly suggesting this will turn your engines into grenades, just reduces their optimal life expectancy. I'm begging you; read this slowly, consult a dictionary before reacting.

Hesitate posting this because i o n l y....want to hear from those with solid engineering knowledge about Ron's observation of reduced engine life, not retirees and shut ins who want to see their names ever on forums.

Posted on: 12/7 18:52
 Top  Print 
Like (1)
 


Re: Advance timing??
#3
Home away from home
Home away from home

TxGoat
See User information
You won't go wrong using factory specs for initial timing and distributor advance curves.

If your engine is altered from stock, you may need to adjust timing to avoid detonation under load.

That said, many factors affect when and if an engine will "ping" or detonate.

Advancing initial timing will improve starting, IF it was firing too late to begin with.

If your engine has a worn timing chain, timing marks will be out of register. With a well-worn engine, you may have to "play it by ear".

Advancing initial timing too much will cause the engine to kick against the starter, especially when starting a hot engine. It may also cause detonation at higher engine loading.

Posted on: 12/7 20:05
 Top  Print 
Like (1)
 


Re: Advance timing??
#4
Home away from home
Home away from home

TxGoat
See User information
Unless you operate an engine at high output levels most of the time, mild power increases will not affect engine life.

Automobile engines in normal service run well below their maximum design speed and HP/torque output most of the time.

Avoid the many forms of abuse for maximum engine life.

Posted on: 12/7 21:08
 Top  Print 
Like (1)
 


Re: Advance timing??
#5
Home away from home
Home away from home

Fish'n Jim
See User information
I suggest it's better to find out why your car is not starting 'well' than fiddling with the timing. Quick fixes are just that - don't solve problems. I define 'well' as it turns over and fires right off. No prolonged cranking or multiple start attempts. Most of these old cars, need a few turns to bring up the oil/fuel pressure before intro of spark. Look at the starting procedure for your car. Carb design influences starting procedure too.
Perhaps it's not timed correctly to begin with or some issues with the spark or fuel circuit, starter drawing too many amps/battery not outputting, etc. These old carb/points cars should be "tuned up" about every year regardless of miles driven for max starting performance.
It has little to do with the nominal system voltage, per se, 6 vs 12, as many of the ignition system coils ran on 6V well past the advent of 12VDC cars. Aka ballast resister cars and then they moved the resister internal to the coil later.
Timing is just the marriage of spark to piston position in degrees. If it's "too early" then the fuel charging won't be complete before it starts to burn or to much not burn at all. ie backfires thru manifold. Yeah, burn, not explode.
If it's too late, then some unburnt will leak out before it's ignited or not ignited it won't start if too much.ie can backfire.
It's fantasy to think that only when it's @ TDC that the spark needs to be there.
Now figure in rpm's and things change.
There's less time to complete the 4 cycles. It's better to be a little before(anticipate firing) than late with a mechanical system. Electronics(HEI) often fire multiple times instead of the mechanical once so are more reliable/less sensitive. If you ever watch a top fuel dragster, there's fire coming out the headers, even at idle, not clean completely burnt exhaust. And they use two magnetos for max. spark. The idea being to stuff as much fuel in there to get maximum HP a fast as possible, ignoring fuel efficiency or perfect timing. Cylinder pressure increase increases required spark energy. Often one cylinder will go out, white fuel spray out the exhaust header during the run and cause mechanical damage. But that's for illustration, not factory P's.
All my reading, SAE reports, etc always attribute the start up period as the highest documented engine wear period. That's why highway miles are less damaging than start/stop driving. That momentary lack of lubrication increases frictive wear, until the oil gets flowing.
to illustrate: Many antique tractors had roller bearing bottom ends, not traditional solid bearings or babbitt for longevity. How it was constructed will determine more it's design life than ignition timing. The evolution, progressed to pressure lubrication & oil filtration to extend engine life. It started off mostly as splash oiling, or 'oilers' and frequent oil change or once through oiling.

Posted on: 12/9 11:09
 Top  Print 
Like (1)
 


Re: Advance timing??
#6
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away

Packard51
See User information
Thanks everyone!! I will weigh the good and bad, not jumping to any action just yet. Looking down the road. Mine has 98k, but the last 12 years only driven for a total of 7k. I didn't even consider the carb as part of the problem. The previous owner installed an electric fuel pump, and the owner before him had switched to negative ground?!! So about a month ago I replaced the terminal cables to get that straightened back up. Hopefully this weekend, mild weather holds, get the halogen headlights installed and try getting her back on the road & running! I really appreciate any input, I do not have an ego to get in the way, knowledge is most powerful when shared! Merry Christmas everyone, be safe!

Posted on: 12/21 13:48
 Top  Print 
 


Re: Advance timing??
#7
Just can't stay away
Just can't stay away

Packard51
See User information
Thanks!! And yes, I will weigh it and wait for more feedback on the cons-good. Hopefully someone that has done it several years ago will weigh-in. I have 98k on my motor now. I had it running, had to sit for a moment and now won't start. I don't like using-up a 6V just for cranking and not getting anywhere that is all. Thanks for the awesome info!!

Posted on: 1/2 12:28
 Top  Print 
 








Search
Recent Photos
Photo of the Day
Recent Registry
Website Comments or Questions?? Click Here Copyright 2006-2024, PackardInfo.com All Rights Reserved