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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Home away from home
 
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I think I've solved my mystery hydraulic lifter engine problem. Thanks to Owen posting in another topic, I discovered the Service Counselor for September, 1954. Under Service Replacement Engines it states that service engines for 24th - 54th Series cars - all models - would "come with Hydraulic Tappets and will be built up for use on Ultramatic equipped cars". While I don't find anything about engine numbers, I'm thinking it wouldn't make much sense to number them because of potential State Registration confusion.
Since my '51 was placed in the hands of a Dealer's family member in 1955, it might follow that the engine on a then four year old car might be replaced with a new Service Engine as "preventative maintenance".
Posted on: 2011/11/24 20:01
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1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?) 1951 Patrician Touring Sedan 1955 Patrician Touring Sedan |
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
 
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Jim, Without any evidence otherwise, I guess it is possible service engines were un-numbered. Seems like it would be awfully hard to keep track without something though--at least to document for warranty purposes or running changes to say nothing of DMV requirements when engine numbers were used.
We are missing page 6 in the last Studebaker bulletin (#350) where they discuss replacement S8 engines so don't know if anything was mentioned. There was an early bulletin saying mechanics were to stamp numbers and gave some instructions. IIRC, a couple of years ago one poster had a title with strange numbers or information he couldn't document. The motor number he posted had extra info which I believe we speculated was indicating a replacement. At any rate, you have looked in the spots they normally were stamped and I don't know any other places to suggest. I don't remember hearing of one but does anyone know if they had anything like the later Utica number in some obscure place?
Posted on: 2011/11/24 20:05
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Howard
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
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Jim,
The information in the Sept. 1954 Counselor was later rescinded for 24th, 25th and 26th Series cars in the Oct. 1954 issue, but was mainly concerned with transfer of flywheel and related parts for replacement engines that were built up for Ultramatic. However, you're getting warmer. The issue you need to look at is from December 1951 (SC Vol. 25, No. 14). This is where it was first announced that the service engines would be built with hydraulic lifters, including the 288 (with oil filter then required). Yet, take note of the paragraph reminding the reader to: Quote: Be sure when stamping the engine number to add the suffix letter 'H' after the engine serial number. This suggests that the service engines not only came from the factory un-numbered, but that the dealer should stamp them. My gut feeling is that this was to permit application of the vehicle's original motor number to the replacement; the 'H' suffix may have been a visual cue to identify a replacement unit, as well as presence of hydraulic tappet equipment. I can imagine that step being skipped by a lot of installers, though. I've edited the relevant Service Index entires to make these distinctions a bit more apparent.
Posted on: 2011/11/25 10:43
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
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Howard,
Since proof of purchase and return of defective material was required for warranty coverage, I imagine the repair order showing the replacement part number and the original vehicle serial and motor number and the returned motor correctly stamped by the installer would provide a sufficient audit trail. Stamping the original motor number on the replacement engine should preclude any future problems with DMV.
Posted on: 2011/11/25 10:59
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
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Quote:
Brian, Guess I spent too many years getting accustomed to managers trying to game the system by having their charges send non tracked & almost non-identifiable circuit boards back under warranty so their cost center wouldn't be hit. Woe be to those managers who didn't make their numbers. While lots were legit, parts people finally caught on and started tracking serial numbers on expensive things where they could. You're probably right on the Packard warranty part and it's not like there would be such a huge volume they would lose track. DMV, I am not that convinced about. They seem to be pretty fussy about numbers. Guess again, too many experiences with our modern bureaucrats. Do believe there were several posts where people referred to an S-xx number on later service replacements so wonder when that started..
Posted on: 2011/11/25 12:55
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Howard
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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I don't know how they handled this postwar, or with any of the prewar juniors. With the prewar seniors with detachable blocks (320, 357 and 385 engines) there were two options. The first was a factory-rebuilt cylinder assembly, cleaned and sand-blasted internally, bored as needed, fitted with fitted OEM pistons, rings and pins, and valve guides and seats attended to. They were painted gray to differentiate them from "new"; since the motor number was on the lower aluminum crankcase, these bore no other markings. This entire process is detailed in the 1933 or 1934 Service Letters. Complete new engines were numbered in the same series as the assigned motor numbers for that year and chassis. Whether they were random or in a special block of numbers I don't know but apparently there was no indication other than a motor number, no suffixes or prefixes. At least that's how I understand it.
Posted on: 2011/11/25 13:18
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
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The whole replacement engine thing is interesting. We do have those bulletins indicating one service replacement engine with late options replaced several others with different specs. If that new engine was unnumbered and restamped as original then wonder how the mechanic would know it had the latest pieces and to service accordingly rather than being the original engine design--
Posted on: 2011/11/25 13:33
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Howard
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Forum Ambassador
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I agree Howard, let's hope some documents come to life from somewhere that help us better understand this. Certainly during the V8 era there can't be many questions as the Utica Plant engine number, as with the Utica transmission #, was referenced to all or most of the running changes and these are spelled out in the TSBs. I'm assuming a replacement V8 had a Utica # but no vehicle (motor) number by the oil filler tube so all the dealer had to do was stamp that VN on the motor, and everything agreed. Perhaps V8s with the VN stamped elsewhere were dealer-replacment motors?
But for 1954 and back to the 18th series, I haven't a clue.
Posted on: 2011/11/25 14:27
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Re: Thunderbolt valve clatter
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Home away from home
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Quote:
I don't know if I mentioned it, but my engine also has an oil filter - which would seem to agree with your findings. I'm also interested about the dealer stamping procedure. At times and under the right lighting conditions I sometimes think I see the traces of some numbers on the pad area above the starter. I've tried rubbing chalk over the area as well as old motor oil and I'm almost sure I see at least the number "2" in one place that is too perfect to be an illusion. This is where obsession comes into play. Does anyone know of a way (short of shipping the car to the FBI lab in Quantico, VA) to raise poorly stamped numbers? If they ARE there it is evident that the tech was feeling poorly that day. I also feel the car has been able to "skate" all these years as I have paper work showing the car has never been titled out of Oregon (at least after 1955). As Oregon doesn't do VIN inspections on cars titled in state after the initial title request, there would be no incentive to make sure the numbers remained legible.
Posted on: 2011/11/25 15:01
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1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?) 1951 Patrician Touring Sedan 1955 Patrician Touring Sedan |
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