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Replacing ignition points on '39 Six
#1
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

greybeard
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Troubleshooting performance issues on my Six (idles and revs fine sitting still, but falls flat on it's face when given any gas while driving), and plan to replace the points - they look okay sitting in the distributor. Are there any peculiar or unique aspects to this process that I should know about before I attempt to remove and replace these points? I am also replacing the condenser - the distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs and wires, and condenser were all replaced about 500 miles ago, right after I acquired the car last July; additionally, I replaced the Carter electric fuel pump last summer, that was just spitting gas, and added a fuel pressure regulator and pressure gauge - pressure set to 2psi per Daytona Parts Company recommendations. The condenser tests bad using my analog multimeter, according to the method I see used on youtube (they were using a digital multimeter), but so does the replacement I just bought at NAPA. Also just replaced the ignition coil, then learned how to test it. Used my vacuum tester to check the vacuum advance - it advances and holds vacuum well. I also rebuilt the carburetor - Carter WA-1, then replaced it with a brand new Daytona UN2 series. As there are no visible timing marks on this engine, I will use the "penny over the spark plug hole" method or attaching my compression tester to the #1 spark plug hole to find TDC and check/adjust timing. All insights appreciated.

Posted on: 5/31 9:58
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Re: Replacing ignition points on '39 Six
#2
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56Clippers
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A chronology of the problem and any other running differences with the changes you have made would be helpful as you don’t indicate if the problem has been happening since you purchased the car last July or occurred since.

The Service Manual, section 33 Ignition Timing, on page 18, references figure 31, on page 19 which shows timing marks, are they not on your car?

Posted on: 5/31 10:40
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Re: Replacing ignition points on '39 Six
#3
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HH56
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And once the hard to see and use timing marks on the flywheel viewed thru the peep hole have been found, many have fabricated a pointer out of heavy wire or scrap metal and marked the vibration damper at a couple of the important spots duplicating the flywheel mark locations.

Neatly done and attached to the chain cover bolts in a similar fashion to how the later engines mounted a pointer, that small mod saves a lot of future time and effort. You might even be able to find a bolt on factory pointer from a later six engine. The marks on the vibration damper don't need to be as elaborate as the flywheel marks, just a single line or two maybe done with a light tap of a chisel at the major timing points and highlighted with white paint should be enough to let you know if something falls seriously out of spec. If more precise marks are needed the original setup is still there.

Posted on: 5/31 11:22
Howard
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Re: Replacing ignition points on '39 Six
#4
Quite a regular
Quite a regular

greybeard
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Thanks for the link to the service manual --
I did not include a chronology of the car's history since acquiring it, as I imagined those who would be reading it begin to notice their eyes glazing-over before they finished reading. But I can see the utility in some background. The car was in Florida when I purchased it on Hagerty's Marketplace auction. When it arrived here in southern Oregon, elevation 4,140 feet, it would not idle without accelerator pedal help - running very rich, emitting copious clouds of blue/black exhaust smoke. Had the Carter WA-1 carburetor adjusted so it would idle, but it still ran rich with the smoky exhaust still present; driving it last summer, I was getting 8 mpg, and I was not driving it hard - with it's suspension, it is a cruiser, and would do 55mph easily. Speed limit out here 65mph, which most drivers ignore, so I got tailgated, a lot. I suspected the carb as the likely culprit as the source of the smoke and lousy fuel economy. The Carter electric fuel pump failed last August, stranding me on the highway, got flat-decked home and replaced the pump, with another Carter (25 gallons per hour rating), which appears to be the only pump available, as the car is 6 volt positive ground. Anyway, back to the carb; I ordered a rebuild kit from Mike's Carburetor Parts, but had no desire to try to learn how to do carb rebuilds, so I purchased a Daytona Parts Company universal replacement later that month. Winter arrived, so the carb work waited until last month. The car ran fine this spring, so I decided to address the smoke/fuel economy issues and replaced the WA-1's gaskets - no more smoke, and the carb was no longer soaked with gas down the outside of the carb. But test drives revealed a new problem - above 35 to 40 mph, the engine would bog-down when given more accelerator pedal, and the car would go no faster. So it seemed reasonable that the carb was at least partially responsible for the symptoms, so I replaced it with the Daytona, and performed the initial adjustments, per their instructions. It displayed a new symptom - the engine would "gallop" at engine speeds above 1400 rpm, shaking like I have never seen an engine shake. The tech at Daytona, down in Florida, told me I had too much gas being delivered to the carb. A little more history; last summer I replaced the fuel pressure regulator - the type that has numbers around the adjustment dial that do not necessarily correspond to actual pressure settings - with a new Holley regulator, and added a fuel pressure gauge down stream from the regulator, thinking the regulator might help eliminate the smoke and economy issues, but no luck. Back to the galloping; I experimented with numerous fuel pressure settings, from 1/2psi up to 6psi, no change in the galloping, except that it got worse with higher fuel pressure. ( I have been running the pressure regulator at 2psi, per Daytona's instructions, since the start of this season's driving .) The Daytona dude was 95% convinced that the problem was not their carb, so I asked what would be an acceptable fuel volume delivery level (gallons per hour) , and he changed his tune and claimed I had weak spark. I tested the spark - it looked bluish white like it should. I replaced the spark plugs - the old ones had maybe 500 miles on them - they had sooty black tips - no surprise due to the richness of their environment, but no change in symptoms. I had done a tune-up on the engine shortly after the car was delivered - condenser, distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs and wires, and the coil wire. I did not replace the ignition points, as the ones I ordered were the wrong ones. I did not check the timing, as I could find any timing marks - not on the harmonic balancer, although there is a pointer mounted above the balancer, or on the flywheel through the non-existent viewing port. The car ran fine after the tune-up. Back to the present - not being able to resolve the galloping, I reinstalled the WA-1 and the symptoms changed again - no gallops of course, but now the engine falls flat on it's face when under load. When stationary the engine runs great.

Posted on: Yesterday 13:46
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Re: Replacing ignition points on '39 Six
#5
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Packard Newbie
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Greybeard, Have you compression tested this engine? I went through very similar problems with my six and in the end, a compression test revealed all kinds of issues. I, like you, also tried different carbs and I eventually took the correct carb to a rebuild specialist and had it properly rebuilt (even though it was supposed to have been rebuilt by the vendor) and it has been running flawlessly ever since. A compression test provides a really good base line for 'engine health' and if you haven't already, I'd sure consider it. Chris.

Posted on: Yesterday 22:00
'If you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right!' Henry Ford.
1939 Packard Six, Model 1700
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