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what to check out when buying a 110?
#1
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megamotorhead
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A few years ago, I got on this site to ask about parts availability for prewar Packards. Based on the responses and other online resources, I pretty much gave up on buying a late '20s or early '30s Packard. I decided if I ever owned a Packard, it would pretty much have to be a 1940 or earlier 110, 115, or 120.

I recently came across a 110 for sale in very nice shape at a reasonable price. Yeah, I know - that's the first red flag . But, for the first time, I'm seriously considering going tire-kicking for a Packard.

Now, I've been a stock Chevy guy for years. I've literally looked at hundreds of stock '55-57 Chevys for sale over the years, and I'm very good at that. But, I don't know the nuances of shopping for stock Packards.

So - can you tell me the weaknesses and "gotchas" of looking at late '30s 110s, 115s and 120s? Things like "a weak point of the design is..", "many have problems with...", "they all rust at this spot", and "make sure this part is there and in good condition, because it's impossible to find".

Looking at how to ID a 110 - it looks like the main things are the tag on the firewall and the engine number. Are there any codes for paint and interior colors? Other numbers I should check?

Thanks!

Posted on: 2017/7/19 18:27
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#2
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Packard Newbie
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Hi Megamotorhead,

I am by no means an 'authority' on 'buying stock Packards' and there are tons of guys on this site that have forgotten more than I'll ever know about these cars, but I bought a '39 Six about a year and a half ago and have learned a 'few' things. My car was actually advertised as a '120' and I went to look at it expecting a straight 8. I had done a fair bit of research and knew that the wheel base was a 'tell' on the model. When 'my' car turned out to have a six cylinder and a 122" wheel base, I then thought it was a '110'. I bought the car and started calling it a 110 until someone on the site corrected me. 1939 6 cyl cars were called 'Six's and I don't think they became '110's until 1940.
One thing that has plagued me since getting my car is trying to get the steering box to any semblance of factory specs. In mine, the side-thrust bearings that 'support' the sector wheel were disintegrated and I scoured every bearing resource I could come up with and could not find them. I would sure look closer at the steering play if I bought another one.
I also did a fair bit of checking on the engine #'s and the VIN ID plate. There is an 'anti-theft' # imprinted into the fire wall and the engine block ID #'s are letter-coded; I.E. 'B' denotes 1939, 'C' 1940, etc.. Packard did not have a 'numbers matching' method of coding their engines, but I would ensure that a) the main VIN ID plate is THERE, and record it, the firewall # and the engine ID and check with the guys on this site and they will be able to give you a pretty good idea if things match up.
I found it amazing how many new-old-stock and remanufactured parts were still available for these cars. And there is no way to say enough about the folks on this site for their constant help, advice and clarification on 'all-things-Packard'. I can also say I have never had any 'buyer's remorse' for having bought my car and am still as enamored with is as the first day I set eyes on it. If you do pick up this car - congratulations... and welcome to 'Packard'.

Posted on: 2017/7/19 19:32
'If you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right!' Henry Ford.
1939 Packard Six, Model 1700
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#3
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Ross
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Those cars are about as complicated as one and a half Ford 8n tractors bolted together and every bit as durable.

Yes, do check your steering, but the most frequent problem there is the bushing where the idler lever pivots in the frame; not a big problem to replace.

If column shift, watch for looseness in the shift mechanism.

Without overdrive it is a 55 mph car. With OD it is a 70 mph car.

Lever shocks will probably need filling and possibly rebuilding--$$.

Posted on: 2017/7/20 6:49
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#4
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bkazmer
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The column shifter slop is a common but not terribly serious issue. If it sticks in gear , diddle the forks under the hood.
The shorter length is all in front of the cowl, so a lot of 120 (and some short wheelbase Su8)body parts will interchange, but hoods and fenders will not.
While the vendor population is nothing like the "build from a catalog" 55-57 Chevies, there are a small group of good Packard vendors. Mechanical parts are not too hard, trim can be, but 110's were built in large numbers (for Packards).
There are three big chromed pieces on a 110 (bumpers and grille) and chrome is expensive. The interior is high quality wool.
Overall, they are very solid designs, and a lot of car for the money then and now. Personally, the two door body styles fit the shorter wheelbase more attractively, but cost more and sadly are rod fodder at times.

Posted on: 2017/7/20 7:36
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#5
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39SixSedanMan
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Hey, Megamotor!
I own a 39 six now restored after having been disassembled pretty much to the final nut and bolt. in a few days I will have had the car for 20 years and I love it. For the record:
1937: "115C" to match the third year of the 120C (120 began in 35)
1938-39: "Six"
1940 on: "110"; however, in aftermarket parts books and the online data from many of our vendors (Merritt, Kanter, etc), all these junior sixes are often called "110"

The 39's had an R6/7 overdrive optional and for that year only. I've added an R9 BorgWarner Overdrive that would have been proper for the 40-48 Packards. Joy to drive; very nimble.

As mentioned, any column shift if not correctly adjusted, can be an issue. When Packard introduced it in 39, the cranks on the transmission had rubber inserts intended for vibration and noise isoloation, but they quickly deteriorated and fell out. Very quickly, Packard moved to solid cranks and offered them on future vehicles and as a service part for the 39's.

In general, I would advise that the biggest thing to be aware of is that cars of the 30's are different from those you may be use to:

Driving:
- Higher center of gravity means more body movement during accel, decel and turns.
- Non power steering and larger steering angle ratios
- Of course, unboosted brakes means the pedal force/travel/decel is not your modern car, and will be different from a mid 50's car

Maintenance:
- lever action shocks that need to be maintained with shock oil (Motorcycle fork oil)
- drum brake adjustment from time to time
- voltage regulators that may need point cleaning and adjustment in order to properly charge the battery...like the distributor
- Fluids, Fluids, Fluids: the old WW2 vet who helped me with my car long ago said any old car may have a leak, but not like the issue our friends in England have (aint oil under it, there aint oil in it).

The punchline here is that the simplicity of these machines makes them extremely reliable.

I hope this helps!
Pat

Posted on: 2017/7/20 12:11
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#6
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megamotorhead
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Thanks for the tips you've passed along thus far. I have to admit I was a little sloppy on my model designations. Saying a 6 or junior 8 would have been more accurate and all-encompassing.

As far as pre-war cars go, I do have a bit of experience. When I first discovered the antique car hobby as a kid, Model A Fords were everywhere. I've driven several Model As over the years, but never got to the point of pulling out my wallet to buy one. I've driven a Model T once (and only once!) as well.

More recently, I helped the widow of a long-time friend by getting their Model A running again. But, having delved into the nuances of Model A design as part of that exercise, my interest in owning one cooled a bit.

So, if I'm considering a prewar car, but I'm less than enthusiastic about the various Fords and Chevys of the era, what should I consider? Well, seeing as I can't go to the AACA meet in Hershey without drooling over every prewar Packard I see, maybe that should be my first clue.

Since my initial post in this thread, I've read a couple of the owner's manuals and shop manuals on this site. They've been most helpful. Also, I like the design from an engineering standpoint - it's years ahead of the Fords and Chevys of the era.

I do have a few more questions.

The Ford flathead V8s are notorious for overheating problems. And, a number of flathead engines are prone to cracks in the block. Are either of these perennial problems with the Packard engines?

I noted the 1935 manual made a point of using the "right" rear axle fluid, and to check with your Packard dealer for specifics. By 1939 or 1940, they're talking about hypoid gear oil in the axle. I've heard that some early rear axle materials aren't compatible with modern gear oils. What do you recommend for use in the rear axle?

Thanks again for the tips!

Posted on: 2017/7/22 13:53
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#7
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39SixSedanMan
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Looks like you are serious, with good research.

Regarding overheating, Packard's flatheads made use of a water distribution tube which was inserted into the block. it's job was to uniformly distribute water to ALL cylinder walls, whereas some manufactures simply allowed the front cylinders to have the coolest water and the rears had to survive running a bit hotter.

With that said, any engine whose water passages are filled with rust scale and water minerals will over heat. So, you may still wish to confirm they are open on any purchase. My 39 Six was filled with all kinks of goo. Since my car hadn't run in many years, I opened everything up and power blasted it out.

Regarding what oil to use in the rear diff or for that matter, the transmission and overdrive, you have tapped into what will be a long debate of whether modern transmission oils' ingredients can attack the brass/bronze components.

After lots of research on the oil standard rating system, I conclude that the benefits of the latest oils far outweigh the impact of any very small amount of anything negative. In fact, as and engineer, I conclude there is no question as to what to use. Other than that, I can only suggest doing your own research.

I hope this helps.

Posted on: 2017/7/22 18:03
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Re: what to check out when buying a 110?
#8
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Owen_Dyneto
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Packard introduced hypoid rear axle gearing in the late 1920s so you must use an EP or extreme pressure gear oil. For year-round use I'd suggest an SAE 85W-140 GL5 for the differential.

Posted on: 2017/7/22 19:14
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