Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

Just got a chance to inspect the Howard Hughes/ Jean Peters Caribbean at the museum in El Segundo. At first I thought that the drive would be a waste since the car is housed behind glass in a climate controlled,room which is not open to the public. Fortunately the curator came to my rescue and allowed me to inspect and photograph the car after the museum closed.
The museum is worth a visit for anyone visiting the Los Angeles area with a superb collection of cars and an extensive collection of rare Packards including a unique 53 prototype coupe and one of the nicest
Dietrich roadsters I have seen.
I will be forever grateful to the staff and curator for their courtesy.
I took a significant number of shots of the Caribbean and as soon as I get them organized, I will try to post them to afford some guidance for anyone attempting to restore a 55 Caribbean.
The Hughes car is a clear benchmark vehicle that should be more carefully documented to provide a guide for restoration and judging. Purportedly the car was the 17th Caribbean off the line and the first to actually be sold to the public. The car has some evidence of deterioration but shows slightly over 1700 original miles on the odometer.
A few observations about the car seem warranted based on my brief inspection in order to answer some questions that have been raised on earlier Forum posts. The color under the parking lights is the middle color and not the gray bottom color. Additionally the Hughes car is not fitted with the hood support rod seen on later offerings. (My car was also not fitted with the hood,support but I added one in the interest of self preservation.)
I also,documented that the inside door jambs,of the Hughes car do not show evidence of paint of all three exterior colors- the middle,color,is,absent--and the paint line of the lower color angles up from the front edge of the door toward the inner door panel.
I hope that the photos will assist others seeking to correctly detail their engine compartments to original specifications.

Earl Rubenstein who is curator of the museum is a personal friend since the 1970s and certainly is always a gracious host. He was once president of P.I. and has been a regent of The Packard Club for many years. Another friend is the owner of the vehicle. I knew about the car before he bought it from Hughes' people.

For a short time this Caribbean was easily seen being driven around in Beverly Hills by Jean Peter's nephew. He took it to Sunset Ecology Car Wash on Sunset Blvd. in West Hollywood to get it cleaned. A known place back then. It was serviced at L.A. Packard dealer Frost & French (that was STILL open for business in the 1970s).

I also still have the original poster-sized color proofs (rolled and sealed) printed up by Petersen Publishing when they did a rather bad article on the car that appeared in Motor Trend magazine. They had a 50s-look model siting in the car with the top down.

I drove this car back in the 1970s... I have photos to prove it.

No need to do guessing. The car has been very, very carefully documented. This was done about 40 years ago. Stacks and stacks of photos taken back then when it was even fresher than it is today. Hughes people were interviewed. Others were interviewed. There are still existing notes from these interviews and from an engineer in Detroit who set up the 1955 and 1956 Caribbeans. All of this was done 40 years ago and still exists. This may seem like news today in 2015, but it has already been documented, photographed and written about long ago.

There was a very complete and accurate article-with lots of detailed photos of the car in The Packard Cormorant magazine published by the Packard Club and suspect that back issue may still be available. Yes, including engine compartment and inside of trunk (with boot and boot bag) and contents. Yes, including the original factory Orlon top with colored lining. The only VISUAL item changed under the hood at the time was a Diehard battery in place of the original staggered-post Delco. The car was fitted from the factory with General Nygen tires. No need to do any guessing or wondering or conjecturing. This was all pictured and published back in the 1970s along with the whole story of the car.

However-again I probably know this car better than anyone- caution that you cannot possibly go by the paint on this car. This was not your typical 1955 Caribbean. I have very strong reason to believe it was sent out from the factory KD (meaning knocked-down as in method used for shipping some cars overseas). I also have strong reason to believe this car was painted at the dealership in Los Angeles... at least partially. Not sure who was the richest man in the world at the time of purchase (Rita Hayworth's hubby or Hughes) but either way, the factory certainly knew who and where this car was headed.

The subject of the hood support has been discussed on this site previously and that posting is still accurate.

Leeedy, it was the photo of the trunk contents in that back issue of The Packard Cormorant that I used as a source to scale the dimensions and ultimately make a replica boot bag for my 56. That photo was also the reason I also fitted General Nygen tires.

Leedy- I am not sure how to respond to your post. I am sure that I am not the first person to take pictures of the Hughes Caribbean. I concur that the curator and staff were terrific.
I have tried without success to secure detailed photos of this car or other benchmark vehicles for several years and would gladly have paid and would still pay for detail pictures of the engine compartment, trunk, interior and other areas of the car to allow restoration approaching original specifications.
Is there some reason why the extensive photographs and engineering details that you mention are not readily available or incorporated into a judging guideline.
I have been somewhat confused that those who restore Packards much less those who are called upon to judge them do not have such guidance.
I do not restore my cars for show but do endeavor to try to perform the work in such a fashion that it does not preclude a future owner from such activity. I drive my cars and will install radial tires, updated halogen lights, electronic ignitions( Petronix) and perhaps electric wipers for safety and ease of operation. I do not change engines, transmissions, interiors or suspension or braking systems--- although the TredleVac has tempted me.
More common Marques like the Corvette and Mopar groups have taken steps to identify Benchmark vehicles and to document every aspect of construction and details- both to aid restoration and to to allow consistent judging.
If the photographs of the Hughes car are available, I am sure they are superior to my efforts. Please advise whether I may purchase copies and I will endeavor to get them into open circulation.
I would hope that similar efforts could be available for other models- we will be working on a 55 Clipper Comstellation shortly and are pretty much in the same haze regarding specifics.
Thanks
RJR

Quote:

First, that's Leeedy with 3 e's. And a response was neither necessary nor expected.

For reasons that are unclear, people today are creating "mysteries"(ooohhhhh that Predictor history is such a mysssstery... Ohhh where on earth did they take those crayzeee Predictor photos???? Oh... click here and find out the SECRET!!-not bothering to tell you they are merely repeating something that was written and published years ago) and making it SEEM as though some of these things and the information are not available, when it is exactly the opposite. What some people really mean is it may not be someplace they frequent or like on the internet or on the almighty Wikipedia. Or or on the smartphone...or familiar to THEM. So they consider it unobtainable!

A lot of this stuff that is made to appear so mysterious or unobtainable was actually published years ago. You could always read it where it originally appeared... or wait decades and maybe find it regurgitated in one fashion or another on the almighty internet...appearing like some new discovery!

The photographs of the Hughes car-as I stated earlier-are clearly available and have been for 40 years. As attested to by O.D. above. Get the magazine (either through The Packard Club web site... or eBay), read the story. Look at the photos which are all in there already-and more. Ignoring this stuff does not mean it doesn't exist! There are also some photos on The Packard Club web site and again, have been there for years.

This may seem impossible in today's web forums, but there were some of us alive when Packard was still in business... and when the Hughes car was purchased. Some of us even liked Packards back then. Some of us even wrote this stuff down so that people who came along later could actually read it and see the photos we took! (As incredible as it may seem, in those days you had to go to the store, buy the film, load it, set the lighting, shoot the photos, hope the film didn't get too hot or over/under exposed, then you had to take that film to a developer, PAY that developer and hope you got pics back, sort the pics, photo screen them to make publishable... and then write the text and then maybe you had something to show others that they could read and enjoy.)

When people make all of these efforts to bring forth these kinds of materials for others, it usually takes a lot of time and work-not to mention expense-especiall back when. It is tough to see said work all considered non-existent years later-just because it doesn't pop up on a smart phone or a computer web site. What was published was good in the 1970s... it is still good today in 2015. And-one way or another-still available... in "open circulation." Just like the cars are still in "open circulation." If one wants a Packard automobile, they stopped making them decades ago and closed the dealerships... but this does not mean they are not available to own.

Now, if you are concerned that there are no judging "guidelines" (actually there are in many cases-another benefit of being in a club)... here is your golden opportunity to start writing and publishing "Ewreck's Judging Guidelines for Packards." After you do all of the hard work to photograph, write and publish them, you should have a fine product or line of products to sell... or give away if you are so inclined.

Finally, I can assure you that Packard is not the only brand of car I have ever owned. I can also assure you that I very well know all about what MoPar and Corvette groups have done (and by the way-I bought a Challenger convertible NEW and a have owned and restored others. Also bought a Corvette new and have owned several-oldest was a 1958...newest a C6). (By the way... if you are a MoPar man... read what it says about radials in the 1971 Dodge Challenger Owner's Manual.) Anyway many of the manuals out there in the car world were written by yours truly... AND I have judged at my share of vintage car meets. So this information is not unfamiliar to me-so you are preaching to the choir. Agree with you 1,000%.

Leeedy - This time I was a bit more careful--- the auto correct maintained all three E's. For the prior error I appologize.
I am not attempting to get into an argument, just trying to secure information to allow my efforts to take a basket case and return it to presentable condition. No more, no less.
I am old enough to remember when Packards were still sold new but I was not quite old enough to buy one new and for a goodly number of years not in a financial position to consider buying or restoring one.
I have endeavored to restore cars that would otherwise.have ended up in the crusher and have enjoyed the process. I have maintained a fairly expensive photo log of the work on the Caribbean as the work has progressed and as soon as the car hits the road this Spring/ Summer I will endeavor to upload the photos and my comments on the quirks and difficulties to ths site in the hope that my foibles will spare someone else the time and expense of repeating my errors.
This is a hobby for me. I do not do it to garner trophies or in the hope that I will turn a profit. I think that the Caribbean was an amazingly beautiful car that will be fun to drive. I could have purchased a completed car or paid someone to restore the car for me, but that would have defeated the purpose. I knew nothing about Packards when I started the project four years ago. In the interim, I have learned a lot and have met a lot of people who have been extremely helpful in finding parts and affording their experiences. The Forum has been extremely helpful.
I have read the posting that you referenced and have seen the article in the Cormerrant. It was that material which inspired my trip to the museum to see the Hughes car.......and to secure pictures that were not clear from those sources.
If the intent of the Forum and the Clubs is to assure that the surviving Packards remain in existence for the next generations, we should acknowledge that a goodly portion of today's population were not born when the last Packard left the line and couldn't care less. The cars have to be reintroduced to the streets and not tucked away in museums,or under covers in climate controlled,garages - if the awe inspiring features and designs may be experienced.
I am not interested in creating a judging guide for those,who prefer to trailer their vehicles to shows but would anticipate that if that was my hobby, that I would prefer that my car be judged based on an established guidebook based on reference to Benchmark vehicles rather than the whims or memories of a judge without such standard.
From a personal standpoint, it would have been a great help to have some clear photographs of an original Caribbean to guide my efforts to return my car to something approaching the car that exited the factory in 1955 rather than hoping that the cars at Hershey that I photographed to guide my efforts were not themselves incorrect.
The bulk of the people,who will see my car will not know or care if the paint colors, carpeting or hose clamps are correct. In fact most will not know that they are looking at a rare American car........but we should care and do what we can to assist those of us willing to try to restore these relics to do it well.
My offer to purchase copies of any pictures you wish to sell stands. I think I did quite well without them....but I discovered a few corrections that need to be made after examining the Hughes car.
Stay well
RJR

There seems to be a range of interests from Definitely Original, Interesting and Emotional.

About ten years ago I decided that a long association with the National Corvette Restorers Society and I had to come to an end to preserve my otherwise good temperment with my 1967 Corvette Coupe. Before I bought it, thirty-five years ago, it had had a checkered life. I did all that I could afford to do to return it to the condition that it left the factory with. While it was mostly a complete "numbers-matching" car, the NCRS judging process was relentless. Much later, a similar experience with my 1987 BMW L6 coupe told me that other makes have judging processes much the same. "Nicely, almost Original" is my new goal with both cars. Even with a very correct 40th Anniversary Corvette, none of my other cars will ever undergo another critical review. My skin is too thin to withstand it. Others may, and that's fine with me.

My Esquire is a nice car, but with an alternator, an electric fuel pump and a non-working clock and AM radio. The original generator and mechanical fuel pump are stored in boxes, should a future owner want to return it to originality. The BTV and vacuum wiper motor remain intact. What is still there are the crowd-pleasing Torsion-Level system, the Mid Century Modern color combination and that dash that draws raves from the women. The men seem to find the Ultramatic push buttons of great interest. Casual on-lookers are there for the emotions, not the correctness of the hose clamps. But, in my own amateur way, I will appreciate all I can learn about "how correct" a V-8 Packard can be, and then, try to get mine a bit closer.

Gotta love forums. Okay, here are your statements followed by responses:


?I am not attempting to get into an argument, just trying to secure information to allow my efforts to take a basket case and return it to presentable condition. No more, no less.

>>>>>Then this all ought to be very simple: don't belabor an argument! There is nothing to argue except opinion-and everybody on earth has an opinion...especially in internet forums.

? More common Marques like the Corvette and Mopar groups have taken steps to identify Benchmark vehicles and to document every aspect of construction and details- both to aid restoration and to to allow consistent judging.

>>>>> Uh, you brought up what other marques (and organizations dedicated to same) and judging, yet you contradict yourself and claim you don't care about judging and that it has no importance.

? If the intent of the Forum and the Clubs is to assure that the surviving Packards remain in existence for the next generations, we should acknowledge that a goodly portion of today's population were not born when the last Packard left the line and couldn't care less.

>>>>> It is sad that-as you say-people "could care less"... but it remains that 40 years ago SOMEBODY cared and took photos and wrote down a bunch of facts for these people who don't give a rip. I realize this is an age of crudeness and irreverence. But instead of ignoring OR attacking these events and recordings, some of these very people who claim to care OUGHT to be thankful for these records and the fact that SOMEBODY took the time and made the effort to help these thankless anonymous people who would come along decades later and spend more time spewing venom than "caring."

? The bulk of the people,who will see my car will not know or care if the paint colors, carpeting or hose clamps are correct. In fact most will not know that they are looking at a rare American car........but we should care and do what we can to assist those of us willing to try to restore these relics to do it well.

>>>>> And the point here is what? More contradiction. Again, somebody DID care, and a long time ago. The vast majority of the people who read car magazines, go to car shows, museums, etc. etc. etc. don't know all of the facts about these cars. Nobody said otherwise. I am presently using a computer, but that does not make me a computer expert. I started buying Macs when they first came out for this very reason. However, I am deeply thankful to people like Steve Jobs for creating a personal computer that is elegantly easy to use. And I am extremely and eternally grateful to people who originated a Packard Club when the company was still in business. Sixty years later, anybody can show up and be a hero on the internet and that's wonderful too. But, this does not erase-nor minimize-the work of those who came before. This is the only thing important here in this discussion.

Here's MY "don't care"... I don't care whether someone drives their Packard or not. I don't care whether they trailer it or not. I don't care if they store it away and never show it. I only care that people enjoy and preserve their Packards in whatever way they see fit... and continue the memory of the company.

As I have said before, forums are great places to argue anything and everything right into the ground. And everybody has an opinion. And there is always that aspect of clever digs-usually when none are necessary.

This will be my final comment on this matter. Subject closed. Now have at it...

Wow. Surprised to see the comments in this thread. Leedy,I am glad to hear you have an open mind when it comes to the way people want to use, recondition and preserve their cars. Not that we dont care how people use the cars, dont care if they restore, modify etc. We do care. You do care. In fact all are good with the possible exception of the truly rare(100 produced, or 5 survivors remaining).

quote; >>>>> Uh, you brought up what other marques (and organizations dedicated to same) and judging, yet you contradict yourself and claim you don't care about judging and that it has no importance.

? If the intent of the Forum and the Clubs is to assure that the surviving Packards remain in existence for the next generations, we should acknowledge that a goodly portion of today's population were not born when the last Packard left the line and couldn't care less...


In my experience- If those who cared about preservation, really cared, They would be forthcoming and generous with informatin- and they are not. A wonder , in this day of information, Why those who have info Charge for this info and make it harder for those to accomplish a correct restoration. Seems its all about the money, not preservation. No wonder these certain entities are having trouble keeping members and properly judging cars.
I Have a car that is by no means rare but I have carefully, with tact and restraint Repaired or modified it but done it to ensure an easy return back to factory stock if one wanted to do so upon my sale of it, keeping all original parts. Trying to be sympathetic to that, I had tried to get comments and info on 2 certain parts and was surprised and angered by the response. Surely, If you preservationists really cared, Info would be on a website- free of charge. Not more expensive for "non members". You should be ashamed.

I seem to have struck a nerve with Leeedy that was not intended.
I have restored a variety of cars over the past 50 years or so and have generally relied on those who have worked on the particular model for assistance regarding things that are not clear from the service manuals and literature.
Unfortunately, there are not a lot of Caribbeans still around and those who owned them or worked on them when they were new are gone.
I stumbled on to the Forum and I have found that it has been.extremely helpful.
The learning curve has been difficult and expensive in large part because I made the mistake of starting with a project car that was close to scrap yard condition. Aside from a numbers matching engine that was disassembled and a solid frame and floor,pan, the rest had to be salvaged from two parts cars and a host of vendors.
My desire to find a guide for restoration or a good photo library of images of benchmark cars was largely unsuccessful. I was able to secure photos of Bob Signon's Caribbean at the Citizen's Packard Museum where I purchased the car and made several trips to Hershey to obtain photos of cars there for judging. I traveled to Warren, Ohio and got photos of the cars at the museum and one unrestored car attending the event.
The recent trip to the museum in El Segundo was a fluke since I was already in California and it seemed like a,good idea although my car is nearly complete.
I have watched the postings regarding the detailing of the 56 engine compartment with some interest and have been impressed by the helpful hints and photos afforded to assist a fellow,aficionado in his efforts to create an engine compartment mirroring the details of the vehicle when it left the factory.
I am not sure who Leeedy happens to be or why my comments bothered him. As best I can determine is that he or others documente the Hughes/Peters car back in the 1970's and still have the information. If they choose to keep it and not make it generally available-- good for them. It would have been helpful to have access,to the information but I think we did a pretty good job without it.
I would hope that others who have or have access to other benchmark cars would take photographs and post that information to this Forum so that others attempting to preserve Packards will have an easier time than I did.
I am not a computer guru and if I have difficulty getting the
Hughes pictures or my shots loaded, I would hope that I could mail a disc or memory stick to one of the Ambassadors to accomplish the task.
Keep polishing and getting greasy. It is a great hobby.
Thanks for the help already provided.
RJR