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Just a followup on the tech session information I mentioned about the running changes to the 356 oil pump and how that is almost identical in concept to replacing the Packard V8 pump with the Olds pump.

Take a look at the pictures below and notice the similarities. The larger teeth valleys move more oil. Deja Vu.

It is interesting that looking through the service letters of all the "fixes" that were issues between 1940-1947 for the 356 to address noisy lifters on the 356 motors, then finally to solve the issue with a new pump HV oil pump.

Similar to what was happening in 1955-1956 with Packard releasing various fixes to address noises filters. I wonder if Packard had enough time, that they would have eventually came out with a HV pump to address the noisy lifter issue that afflicted some of the V8 motors.

(Let the slings and arrows commence)

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Previous mention of this in the River Fun Run report piqued my curiosity. Thanks for the pix.

Clearly, the late design pump for the Super Eight has gears with a deeper root.

However, in addition to increased flow and pressure, the article on the "New Super Eight Oil Pump" (in SC Vol. 21, No. 2, p. 6) indicates a different casting number on the pump body. The factory wouldn't change that number unless there was some change in the casting itself. Wonder what else changed?

WRT to the V8 pump, repairs that follow Bob Aller's approach of bushing the pump body and truing up the driving shaft, while retaining OE gears, seem to resolve the problem - unless there is latent collateral damage to the engine. Odd that Packard went to the trouble of redesigning the V8 pump body and pressure relief valve, but kept the same gears.

I'm thinking there might be off-the-shelf gears with a deeper root that will fit the OE V8 pump, but won't look into it until I have reason (and time, space, and money) to remove a pump from one of my own cars.

Meanwhile, I've heard, more than once over the years, mention of using Cadillac gears, but no one has provided any specific details.

Brian, I would imagine there would have also been a change to the pressure release valve as well in the 1947 pump due to the increase in volume/pressure. But that is just a guess on my part. Could also be that the casting number was changed as a way to differentiate the two pumps without having to remove them from the vehicle for inspection.

ditto....why not just put in different gears in the OE pump. if that is the problem, then that seems to be a cheaper thing to do if there were some that fit with little to no modification from something current.

otherwise i have no further comment on this subject myself. i have the OEM pump, rebuilt, that i will run. and when money is not an issue i will ask Jack about the Olds kit to keep around.

thanks for the pictures Kev!

Hank

Wonder what else changed?

I would wonder if the length of the gears also changed to warrant a new casting.

HH56 Quote:

I don't know about the 47 HV oil pump, but the Olds HV oil pump gears are significantly (maybe 20%) longer than the Packard V-8 gears in addition to being of the "deep root" design. It was very illustrative during Saturday's Tech Session to pull out idler gears from both oil pumps and stack them side-by-side. Maybe BigKev has a photo of that? For those in attendance it was an "ah ha" moment, showing that if HV gears were installed in the original Packard V-8 casting, that might still not be enough.

Craig

Cli55er Quote:

You should talk with Duane who drove his 55 Clipper Custom to the meet. He was of the same opinion UNTIL he spun #8 rod bearing with the PI modified oil pump. I believe he is now a "card carrying member" of the Olds HV oil pump conversion "club". He had Art Butler install one a few days before making the "longest distance driven award" trip to the meet.

Craig

I'd like to know the condition of the motor when this happened, symptoms, maintenance schedule etc etc etc.

But even without that info I said I would talk to Jack and obviously I won't be driving the car anytime soon, so eventually before I do I'm sure I'll have money to spend on the mod.

Would be cool to have a voting pole with 3 options. Use olds, use OEM, use OEM and will be getting olds

Hank

cli55er Quote:

Excuse me if I don't understand your logic. As an engineer for "mission critical" equipment (Apollo, USAF DSP), if there is a fix for a marginal internal component, it is not a matter of a poll amongst hobby folks to decide if this is something one MUST do or it's a like to have.

You simply do it because that is the smart, engineering thing to do.

Craig

Just to comment on my limited observation of the '40 pump. Comparison of the gear depth is exactly the same. The only difference I found in the pump casting was not in the casting, but only a larger discharge hole diameter. I say limited observation, because I had no interest in conducting an extensive research study, or pondering why some, but not every, early 356 engine experiences noisy hydraulic tappet operation. I know it happened starting nearly at day one, followed by a string of wacky factory fixes, one after the next, with the final solution being a new version of oil pump that could finally deliver the quantity of oil under pressure necessary to supply the bearings and tappets with enough oil to ensure silent operation under all conditions.

Gosh, I don't have a V-8 Packard (yet) but can't hardly help seeing an incredibly ironic parallel here. But, I will leave the pondering about V-8 pumps to those who like to ponder the issue. When I get a V-8 Packard, I will remove the pan the day it arrives and install the Olds kit and go driving. Driving is more fun than pondering.

With that, I leave the discussion to the ponderers and am off to the garage to work on the Packards. I'll need to do lot's of little work on the side mount fenders Kev brought to the Fun Run to ensure they are installed for next years 2012 Fun Run so there are new story's to tell about what we've done on the cars.