Packard Forum Index » General

I see we are likely to see 15% Ethanol gasoline shortly. Any thoughts on how this will affect Packards? I see the news is worried about destroying older catalytic converters. How about older seals, rubber, etc.? Is this a real concern?

Martin K. O'Toole
Marietta, Georgia

If you have original rubber hoses or gaskets in the fuel system they'll be gone in short order. It will also completely clean out your fuel system, meaning you might have to change the filter a few times before the gunk is all gone.

People gripe about performance and lost power, but actually you can gain power if you tune the engine right and increase the compression ratio.

If people would do a little research on ethanol they'll realize that it isn't as bad as most people think. A lot of the time people confuse ethanol with methanol, and methanol is a lot harder on fuel system components.

So, increase the compression ratio, update the rubber components in the fuel system, and advance the timing a little and you should be good to go. Oh, and you can run a hotter spark plugs that will help as well.

FWIW, the 356 that I'm building to eventually put in my '48 coupe will be running on E85 only. I have done quite a lot of research on the subject of ethanol and it's advantages/disadvantages. There's a ton of mis-information out there, believe me.

The performance, economics and politics of ethanol aside, I'm told it's the formation of the byproduct formic acid that reeks much of the havoc with plastic, rubber and metal components in our fuel systems.

PS - just how this is prevented in fuels like E85 is a good question - perhaps some chemical stabilizer?

I read that the implementation of E85 will be phased in, and at first only recommended for vehicles built in the last three years. From this, I would understand from this that the 10% ethanol fuel would continue to be produced and sold until E85 becomes the standard. This will mean that eventually only E85 will be available, but not immediately. Anyone hear anymore on this?

(o{I}o)

I've discussed this before in another thread, but I've been blending diesel (about 10%) with my gas lately to avoid having it "boil" on hot days. Would this practice also save the rubber and gaskets associated with E85 gas use?

I read the same article about it being phased in. I rather expect it will be the standard sooner rather than the later scenario though.

There was another article that because of some supposed pollution benefits, areas with poor air quality will not be given much choice. That hits home here because we're already paying penalties and more to come for missing EPA standards. Right now, a battle is brewing on whether there will be a fee tacked on to vehicle registrations or polluting businesses will have to pay the increased fines. There is some difference of opinion of whether the air will be that much cleaner with it anyway and I'm sure a political battle is down the road but right now, think it's a done deal.

Another reason given for sooner was because the refiners and distributors don't want to waste time, money, and effort on different blends. Apparently without spending big, they have limited infrastructure and since most stations only have 2 gas storage tanks, without adding something there for support, they don't have anything in place either to carry more blends than they have now. Thinking is that most stations will choose support for the future car, not the past and the popular cars will soon have retrofits made available or junked anyway.

The plan I've heard was one additional tank for E85 and blending takes place at the pump. The pump actually does the blending for E10, E20, E30, E40, E85, etc. With today's computerized pumps it isn't hard to imagine two nozzles, one for Diesel and one for everything else.

If someone would like to do a little reading up, here's a few links:

e85forum.com/viewforum.php?f=1

raceone85.com/

e85.whipnet.net/why.e85/index.html

e85refueling.com/

I remember years ago when I was driving my old 1976 Dodge with a stock 318 hauling salvage metal to the junkyard that when I had a big load of scrap on it and the trailer that the truck ran better and cooler with E10 in it, and it was the same price.

One thing to remember, whether you're for it or against it, Ethanol's here to stay. Might as well get used to it and get your car ready for it. But, it's been here all the time, remember pulling into the gas station and the attendant asking "Regular or Ethyl?"

Perhaps we can get this moved to the appropriate forum?

I agree, ethanol is here to stay. I think Brazil has been using a lot of ethanol only for a long time.

The one additional tank and multiblend pumps at the station was mentioned in the local article. Thanks mostly to the fiasco of mandated MTBE which was then found polluting the ground water, the majority of California stations just went thru a massive tank replacement program because of leaking tanks. Many just went out of business rather than take on the replacement costs.

The feeling is without industry or the state providing some financial support for those extra tanks (which apparently they don't want to do) most stations will choose not to add the additional tank. There is also the belief that a major company owned station or two in the larger towns will do it and that will provide the needed older blend. Of course, those in the smaller towns will either drive to those few stations or be out of luck.

Yeah, the health effects of MTBE is the main reason for moving to ethanol.

begin rant/ People who complain about the benefits of ethanol being outweighed by the costs, and that it isn't a viable fuel source only need to look at Brazil and their integrated ethanol economy to see that it's a good thing. People are worried about using food resources for fuel but what they're using to make ethanol out of isn't being used for food, and the "waste" product left over is used to feed farm animals. Once it's all set up and running all the issues that people have with it will be moot. Even if we get to the point where we're depending 50% on oil from where we are now we'll be in a lot better position than we are now, that's for sure. /end rant

Hopefully in 50 years we won't have any reason to be dependent on other people for our energy needs. As for moving to E85 only within the near future, I don't think so. For one, there's isn't enough production capacity for it, and two, that would effectively remove 90% of all vehicles on the road today. At least until people could afford to convert their cars to run it. But, if you have an '70s or '80s vehicle with early fuel injection the cost would be outrageous to convert. It'd sell more new cars to people who can't afford them in the first place.

Now, a gradual implementation of E85 across the country would work just fine, but it's going to cost a lot of money to get the dedicated infrastructure in place to supply states that don't have the agricultural base that Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, etc already have. This is the reason why you see E85 available mainly in these states, because shipping isn't such a big deal.

As for older cars, converting to E85 isn't that big of a deal, really. Here's a link to an article on converting classic cars to E85, keep in mind that E10 isn't as big of a deal corrosion-wise as E85 is.timelessrides.com/blogs/admin/using-high ... ne-e85-gasoline-in-your-classic-car

When it comes to ethanol in today's fuel and as the future's fuel, the only thing you need to remember is adapt or die. It's coming, nothing seems to be able to stop it, so might as well embrace it and adapt to it.

Quote:
"When it comes to ethanol in today's fuel and as the future's fuel, the only thing you need to remember is adapt or die. It's coming, nothing seems to be able to stop it, so might as well embrace it and adapt to it."

Maybe. Alcohol was added to gasoline in the 1978-1983 time frame. It later died out for several years only to rise again over the last few years. It's strictly a scam by the Big Money Boyz

The "dependence on foreign oil" is solely a synthesised dependence by the BMB's. (note the period at the end of that sentence)

Here's the REAL problem we face. Alcohol or ethanol or methanol or WHATS NEXT???? The real question is how OFTEN and at what COST will an adaptation to 'new and better' fuels occur????

We may just find ouselves attempting to adapt our cars slower than the fuel changes occur. This problem of adaptation is currently happening in other socio/economic areas of the US.

DOn't be brain washed by the BMB's.