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Hi Ross,
A lot of info has passed through my eyes in the past week. Did you previously say there is a weight different between the 327 and 356?

Not Ross, but yes. 327 is much lighter than 356. A 356 with transmission is around 900-1000 lbs. Crank is around 100 lbs

Quote:
But as with the later heads suspect that would be only if the head had not been milled before. I don't know if there have been any thickness comparisons made on the 282 heads such as Ross did for the later heads but expect blindly milling a 282 head with an unknown history would have the same perils as the later item.

Many a later head has been milled with best intentions and then put back on an engine only to find too much was removed and valves were now hitting the head. Some newly rebuilt engines had major valve damage quickly develop because clearance on a newly milled head was not checked before bolting the head down.

First Eliminator, listen to Ross. He knows all these engines. You didn't say what year 120 you're picking up. If 1938-on, you won't have to do all the reconfiguring Bob J did on his 120" wb first generation 120, because your wheelbase will be 127".

You can't use a 288 or 327 head on a 120 because they have 3 1/2" bores, while the 257/282 120 engines 3 1/4". BTW, looking for a first year only '35 257 is ridiculous. You're going backwards to go forward. More cubic inches, all things being equal = more power, hp and torque, the latter more important because that's what gets you through the gears. If you want a good road car you can drive fast enough on the freeway to have your license revoked, add overdrive, assuming this 120 you're picking up isn't 1939-on and already has the optional overdrive.

Acceleration = torque, gearing, weight. Absolute speed = horsepower, gearing, CD (coefficent of drag ratio).

"Weight is the enemy." Congratulations for not destroying your new Packard by dumping in a modern V-8, turning it into another retro rod/Frankencar. So many bozos with no understanding, and no appreciation of the past, no historical perspective, just want some "cool old timey" car to wow the other dullards at a cars 'n' coffee.

Knowledge is power. Listen to Ross, HH56 and the others above.

If you brought your 120 into the Packard dealer's service dept. with a shot or tired engine, they routinely replaced it with a 288 from 1948-on. The 288 is an underrated, gutsy engine, and with its short stroke, will wind. Put a 327 head on it and you'll boost compression but still won't exceed 8:1 as Ross sagely reminds So your 120 will still be "authentic" and "correct," should any clipboard wielding cupcakes at some show notice, and in this day and age, all they'll see is that murky Packard green engine paint, and eight spark plugs in a row.

Too many newbies want to reinvent the wheel. Packard knew what they were doing. But if you're rebuilding a 288 anyway, port and polish the manifold, lighten the flywheel.
Otherwise, just follow the Packard Shop Manual. Packard knew as much about engines as Lycoming, Chrysler or GM. The 120 engine is pure Pontiac in design, but viva la difference in execution, refinement. That was Packard's way since the aughts. While Cad, Olds, Chrysler, even Studebaker about to debut or working on OHV V-8s, Packard, distracted by hefty, less hassle govt. jet engine contracts, increasingly phoned in the cars after the war. So the 288 and 327 are just large bore revisions of a 1935 engine.

You do not want a 356. A 327 is nearly as powerful, more so with compression boost and/or four-barrel car, and weighs nearly 3 0 0 lbs. less than the 356 boat anchor. 356s are an expensive nightmare to rebuild correctly, and just a 282 with four more unnecessary main bearings. BTW, hydraulic valve lifters were a $25 or $50 option in the 288 and early 327s, the later editions of the latter came standard with hydraulic lifters.
Since you're a rodder, i'll leave it to you whether you want dead or hydraulic lifters. But remember, Packards were about low end torque and smoothness.

Losing weight and the right gearing will give you a real road car.

Remember, Packard's most profitable year ever was 1929, and while they owned the fine car market through 1936, that was a minute fraction of the car biz. They were on the skids ever since, and just as they had a bell ringer in late '41, the war cut that, left them cash cows but making one automotive bad move after another ever after, a moot point because all independents were doomed.

So if they couldn't get a V-8 out 'til 1 9 5 5, the same year coincidentally as Pontiac, and that V-8 had glitches and the cars shoddy, at least they still made really good flathead straight 8s.

Finally, a Packard 327 and four barrel carb on either a 288 or 327 would give you more oomph. If you don't have an overdrive, get an R-11 introduced late '48. They are slightly simplified from the 1940-early '48 R-9, more plentiful, so cheaper. Jeff Adkins, Moose Motors, Penngrove (Petaluma, CA in the North Bay) has several. packardguy54@sbcglobal.net (707) 792-9985. Jeff has all the mechanical and electrical parts 1935-56. Another A-1 source is Mike Chirco, Tucson Packard (520) 336-0057, packardautoparts@gmail.com
As is Mike Grimes, Merritt Packard, mike@packardparts.com, Mike Grimes, (317) 736-6233, (317) 736-6233 ext 103, ext. 103

Please tell these gents that Mike, Walnut Creek, CA '47 Super Clipper referred you.

And thank another day of 100+ heat for trapping me in the office and enabling this humble seminar from half a century of Packarding (with forays into Cords, Hudsons, and dozens others).

I think you meant put a 288 head on a 327 would increase compression. The 120 I'm picking up is a 1940. I might be new to Packad, but not to engines and transmissions. Packard did know what they were doing. My objective is slightly different than Packard's smooth low end torque engine.....200+ hp instead of the 120. A lot has changed since the 30's to incorporate refinements....but no one will see the internals.
If I were ever to put a V8 where there was a Packard L8, it would only be with a Packard V8. I do have an R11 to pick up...and rebuild. I've liked Packard for a long time and have come close several times to buying one. Now, here I am about to delve into a 1940 120 to ready in time for the Great Race 2025.
thanks to everyone that has taken the time to reply,
Mark

Su8,
Thanks for the lengthy reply above...a lot of good info. At a 200-220 hp level, which would be a preferred 327? 5 main or 9?

Mark

And so you've got a '40 120, my first Packard. The lightest Packards ever offered were that year. Mine below. Ran like the wind with non-overdrive models' 4.09 instead of 4.36 axle in factory overdrive 120s. We added overdrive. 2.95:1 overall final gearing, same as a blown Cord (unblown 2.75:1 but superchargers like a little rpm).

Once got 22.5 mpg, much of it at 60, even 65, 32 psi Denman bias plies. I kid you not. But then a fat '51 Lincoln w/ that 336-ci flathead truck engine managed 25.488 mpg in that year's Mobilgas Economy Run over hill and dale. It had a 3.31 rear axle, in overdrive a final 2.39:1. It was tuned by Bill Stroppe and Clay Smith, driven by a pro, Les Viland. Chrysler complained, the car impounded, dismantled after the run and determined to be entirely stock.

My '47 356 Super Clipper is a drunken b__ch. The lowest slut on the road. Comic opera hood length. More locomotive than automobile. 356 cars understeer. My '40 120 was like a silky blend of MG-T series and old pick up truck, climbed hills like a goat, better than my Super Clipper in that regard. Better ergonomics than the Clippers. '40s are far easier to work on, other than removing the fan.

Eliminator, again, i am not a rod 'n' kustom fan, and were we neighbors, we'd probably be laughing at each other. But i'm glad to see any retain and perhaps "sweeten," tune, or tweak the genuine article. The heart and soul of any car is its engine. Lose that, you're left with the aforementioned Frankenccar. (I make an exception for this site's founder and Grand Overseer, BigKev, as he's building a Packuar or Jagard, an XK six into a '37 six. And the Jag dohc is still in inline six and hales from autumn, 1948.)

Re: your hp range, consider that the four-barreled, five-main-bearinged 327 was rated from the factory at 180 hp/4,000 rpm, 300 ft. lbs. 2,000. So porting, polishing, perhaps lightening the flywheel, advancing the timing a couple degrees (don't overdo it but i'm trying not to write an SAE paper) should easily get you to 200+. Again, full synthetic 10W/30 flows better than dino or semi, so there's another one or two hp.

Beyond that, i defer to any on this forum or www.jalopyjournalcom who've walked the talk. You want "I've done this and here's what..." not more conjecture.

But 200hp is heap plenty, all the more if you jettison a couple hundred pounds from the car, and perhaps driver if not already slim. I lost 26 lbs. in six weeks going from pescetarian to vegan, used the remaining extra virgin olive oil for furniture polish--also good on leather, but obviously can smell, so get jojoba oil at Trader Joe's. It's better for leather, car interior trim, shoes, belts, etc. than neatsfoot oil or anything.

Remember, when Bentley nudged their '52 Continental prototype, Olga, up to an all out 119 mph, they did so after removing the spare tire, backseat, and inflating the tires to dangerously high pressure. Comical are the articles and auction spiel citing "120 mph cruising speed" when most well tuned Continentals probably topped out at 110 with a tailwind. And Bentley discouraged buyers from adding radio.

"I'd sell my grandmother to lose another pound from a Lear Jet," vowed Bill Lear, who in his last days was involved with modern steam cars, picking up where the remarkable Doble left off.

Look at a '34 Packard Model 1106 LeBaron sport coupe. The Packard of those years, had they survived into the '50s not run by the GM production men brought in to cost the '35 120, would've anticipated and matched the Bentley Continental, instead of aping dreck like the Olds Fiesta, Buick Skylark, Cadillac Eldorado with the "Caribbean," a stock convertible laden with 200 additional pounds of "sporty" cues.

So, what body style is your 120? Does it already have overdrive?

How could i forget, and thank the continued 100+ heat for staying in the office 'til it dissipates for this epistle: Get a six-volt, 55-amp, positive ground alternator from Jim's Battery Manufacturing, Youngstown, OH (800) 426-7580. No butchering whatsoever. Tell Jim and Dolores that Mike, '47 Super Clipper, Walnut Creek, CA and my late '47 Custom Super-owning friend Hans Edwards, British Columbia, referred you.

Then, use an Optima Red Top 6-volt 800 cold cranking amp battery. Pricey, but got nearly a decade each from my last two, and know of a '41 Cad that managed 14 years. Eight times more resistant to vibration than a standard wet battery, not that this a problem in Packards, no off-gassing, and weigh only 18 lbs.

These last two tips just saved you an easy 55 lbs.

Less of a load for your brakes, shocks, et al.

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Too bad we aren't neighbors! As long as you don't mind equipment like cranes, bucket truck, excavators, tractors and other old cars, trucks and buses.
The 120 is a club coupe. It's in primer. I'm pondering paint colors and tu-tone schemes. It won't be a restoration. Yet, it will look period correct and be Packard Powered.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1532309597721513/?ref=marketplace_profile&referral_code=undefined

I pay and pick it up Saturday. This 120 did not originally have OD. OD will be going in. Bought a 51 T-85 with R11 on ebay the other day. I've located a few 327. Unsure whether to pursue a 9 main or not worry about it. Then would like to find a 51+ 288 head. The additional compression would help out with fuel economy too. Don't yet have a Packard in my possession, but a Super 8 cam core from ebay arrived yesterday. If it comes to rebuilding, I might have Racetech make some custom forged pistons with a 1,1,3mm modern ring pack.
The 4.09 gear sounds a little more desirable than the 4.36. Adding OD will make it cruise nice at 2.94. I could run a decently tall tire.
The Great Race in 2025 goes from Duluth, MN to somewhere in South Carolina. I don't trailer. Which means I will drive the Packard from Massachusetts to Minnesota. Run the event to South Carolina, then drive back home to Massachusetts.
I'm not into rod and customs......Rat Rods are an out of tune symphony of blasphemy in a tetanus express.
Optima Red---noted.
Is a 9 main block much heavier than a 5 main? More support sounds better and so far, it has been eluded to that 9 mains is not necessary. Is there an explanation of the pros and cons between the 9 and 5?

thanks,
Mark

The 5-main engines spin a bit more freely without the drag if the extra bearings and they are somewhat lighter. Even my huge 156” wheelbase Henney-Packard Nu-3-Way funeral coach that weighed around 6200 lbs had the 5-main 327 and had ample power to easily carry it at highway speeds and then some. On the Interstate I drove it at 80 mph which it did without protest and it was totally original and unrestored!

In the 48-54 era I have long viewed the 9 main engines as a marketing gambit. I can not tell them apart from a 5 main in driving and the 5 main still have a vast acreage of main bearing area compared to anything modern. Its not even remotely an issue.

I can only assume that the extra webs on the 9 main crank actually caused a loss of torsional rigidity as Packard equipped them with a huge whopper stomper vibration damper at the front where the 5 mains got a small one.