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"are worth two to six times book times and at a higher rate."

If "book times" is reference to the flat rate manual then yes, about 3 times flat rate would be a must-have for any mechanic to perform the operation. The problem is that flat rate manual does NOT take inot account rusty bolts, 50 years of gerry rigging by other mechanics, pushing the car in and out of the bay while waiting for parts and this list caould on and on for at least 1000 words.

Flat rate was written FOR THE MANUFATURER in view of WARRANTY work. Many other issues i won;t bother to detail at this point.

Basically, the Flat rate manual is a nice piece of memorabilia. Otherwise it's scrap paper. Even in the day of publish the flat rate manual time-specs was damned near impossible to beat by seasoned, factory trained mechanics in a well stocked dealership of parts and tools etc.

Bottom line, the flat rate manual was used to determine warranty pay. The CORPORATION defined the flat rate manual. Kind of like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

Let me give u a little tip:
Never mention that Flat rate manual to any mechanic u paln to hire. He may not let on. But i'll gaurantee that he'd like to shouve it rite up someones ass. Those things were written strictly for the dealer and manufacturer to get rich. Not the mechanic.

I find them useful in two ways: they set a minimum amount of time for the job and in a number of cases outline what is expected in the procedure.

In removing the oil pan, they tell you what basic operations are expected, like removing part of the bell housing and removing part of the power steering. It's reassurance for those activities.

As a consumer, it is a minimal guideline.

I should point out that my pan was removed in the last two years, so should come off without undue drama.

Sadly, tradesmen are really averse to accounting for their actions. The rest of us have to; why not them?

Financially, I have to be prudent, Not cheap, but surely careful,

I wonder if the government would buy into that approach? Nahhhhhh.

The factory flat rate schedules, regardless of manuafacturer, are developed using time studies of actual operations. However, those studies were conducted under the most optimal of conditions - that is, with vehicle already in the bay and all necessary parts and special tools laid out on a table (like in a hospital operating room).

Surely, no one believes any automaker would ever give even one nickel away.

However, the publisher's of third-party/aftermarket flat rate books often simply arrrived their times by applying a percentage bump to the factory schedules - to help sell books.

Back when I worked for Chrysler, I had a dealer convinced to use the factory labor times for BOTH warranty and retail work, but adjust their hourly labor rate (and techinican pay) to accomodate for the lower times. With a little fine-tuning for older vehicles with rusty fasteners - it worked.

That said, the factory flate rate manuals do give some perspective on what it takes to do the job, but you also have to allow for the fact that these aren't brand-new cars anymore and there's no place for a modern technician to plug in a "scan tool".

That said, the factory flate rate manuals do give some perspective on what it takes to do the job, but you also have to allow for the fact that these aren't brand-new cars anymore and there's no place for a modern technician to plug in a "scan tool".

Of course.

That answers SO much for me, i've been looking for a plug to read the check engine light that keeps blinking orange in my '50 so i can see if it's an O-2 sensor or what.

Then i realized i could just fix it if i keep the turn signal lever in the middle of it's three positions. So must be something with the wiring throwing a code

G'day Men, I realise this is a late post relating to this topic but I was just searching through my stack of spares (for something I couldn't find) and realised I have what I believe is the third pully required when fitting A/C (see pic's). It has a 3/4" centre hole.

I have an under-dash unit (converted to R134A) fitted to my car with a York compressor mounted above the generator. While the compressor still turns, it's reached its use by date and I would like to replace it with a modern Sanden. I have two questions about this - (1) what model Sanden are you fellas using on Patricians? and (2) what is a suitable compressor mount? Despite lengthy searching on this site, I found a lot of references to same but was unable to find out any specific. Is it likely that I'll have to fabricate something to suit? The existing mount is basically a right angle, with a vertical component to which the York is bolted and a horizontal component at the bottom which is bolted to the thermostat housing. There may be more to it which I'll be able to see once I remove the York. Regards, John

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It's hard to tell without seeing it in relation to the vibration damper but at first glance, that appears to be a power steering pulley--although it does have a wide space before the groove. If a PS, it will be the same diameter as the vibration damper fan pulley. The AC pulley is spaced out slightly and almost 1" diameter less than the others. Here is a picture of the factory pulley having the PS and AC grooves on the same casting. There is a separate single AC pulley also available which works with the existing PS pulley. I borrowed a picture of Jack Nordstroms repro to show what that looks like. The PS pulley will work for AC and many have used them although compressor RPM will be higher than optimal. Not a big deal on Sandens but something to watch on Yorks and Lehighs.

Either the Sanden SD 5 or 7 series will work and are sold by most aftermarket places. It really depends on the size of your unit. As to the mount, if you already have the York bracket, an inexpensive way to mount the Sanden would be to get a universal York to Sanden mount and use your existing. That way everything should line up with minimal change.

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Thanks Howard, I'm now starting to think that this not going to be so hard after all, apart from what it will do the hip pocket. I reckon that universal mount of yours should solve all my problems, especially as it has slots for alignment adjustment built in. Since my last post I have spoken to Sanden and was advised to go for a compressor in the SD7H15 series. I was also told about the alignment issue and that different models have different pulley positions, and to try and match clutch diameter as closely as possible. I'll do some more leg work and get moving now that I don't have to worry about any complicated measuring/fabricating. That third pulley matter was just of interest as the car has three in position now. Thanks once again. Regards, John

G'day all, Hey John, on the funny side, do you realise that aircon is not a requirement in Australian G Men cars below the Tropic of Capricorn- Which is about maryborough in Queensland. You are in Victoria, surely God's own country, where it rarely ever exceeds 100F (approx 38C). it is just North of Tasmania where it is cool one day and freezing the next. Below Tassie is Antarticia-true? You are also lucky as you have flipper windows in the Patrician. Pity the poor fellow still working, with a modern 30 degree windscreen and no flippers. Put a 600 ml plastic bottle of water in the freezer and take it with you in the car. It will keep you pretty cool, is great to roll around the back of the neck and you can have a cool drink as it melts - total cost about 2 cents. Best regards and good luck with the aircon - is Fred winding you up on this one? Peter T