Packard Forum Index » General

Opinion? I think I've conclusively proved that it's a fact, not an opinion. But if you request that I stop trying to help people with their cars I will oblige, no arguments at all.

I think this would take a ton of money and testing to find the exact cause that they fail, probably more time and cash and R&D than anyone here is willing to throw at it. Without the exact cause, in extreme detail, i don't think we'll find a failproof solution. Hell, there might not be a 100% safe way to fix a part if it just isn't designed well. Replacement would seem safer, especially to the do it yourself-er types that we have here.

I second guess everything i do (As anyone who reads my threads will tell you) and i'd be nervous doing some small repair that has to be perfect and that you can't tell is right unless you go forever without failure...and even then you might not know if it's not going to fail or hasn't failed yet. I would think finding a model of master cylinder and booster that work well in the stock location and some simple solutions would be a good way to move forward?

Quote:

Several people have done that already, Craig's example is just one. Having driven Craig's car personally, I can't say that I find any fault in the pedal's positioning, or the application of brakes. It's a simple and elegant solution for those who wish to remain stock looking, or don't want to do my Ranger setup through the firewall.

BigKev and others

It will not take lots of money or R&D to examine 25-50 failed units. As we are told that failures are widespread it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with them. We have in stock humdreds of BTV's whidch we can rebuild and supply on an exchange basis for the failed units and a Bendix Power Brake Testing Machine form the 50's to test them on.

All in all, the hydraulic section is pretty simple. A failed unit will leak or consume fluid, only need to find out why.

I understand it is probably time to close the forum, but I ask that you give time for Eric to reply to my question about where I said there were no failures at all when the units were relatively new.

When closed I will be opening up a new forum just for collecting information on specific failures and getting the units shipped to me ( we pay the shipping bopth ways) for investigation at no charge.

By the way, I googled the problem and found a forum on this site from 2009. Same actors, same script, different result.
Nobody did anything productive to find the cause.

Fred Kanter
Kanter Auto Products
Boonton NJ
Boonton NJ

I would think finding a model of master cylinder and booster that work well in the stock location and some simple solutions would be a good way to move forward?


And therein lies the problem. There is nothing made that even remotely duplicates the function and size of the original that can work in that location without something being modified. BTV's and the Moraine version were unique mechanically and probably the only units that could work with the 1:1 ratio -- and I'm not sure even if the Moraines could. Right or wrong, BTV units will be around for awhile.

The firewall mounts are excellent but not doable for those V8s with factory air or those who want to maintain any look of originality. Using the low stock location means the pedal has to be modified and as good as it may work, one look and it screams "changed" and none of the originality guys would touch it even if all the BTVs failed tomorrow. For anyone contemplating though, I think the only option for a subtle unobtrusive change is to refine the pedal somehow.

I would like to see a reason why the failures and hope Fred and company can find one but even if a cause or fix is found, I don't know if it would ever be trusted completely after all the publicity. Mine, while not failing, yet having such low use and having fluid inside the vacuum sure opened an eye. The gasket may be that reason but just that was enough to make me wary and want to explore options more.

Fred Kanter research topic:
What is the purpose of the hollow gallery down the back wall of the BTV master cylinder reservoir???? IS fluid supposed travel UP the gallery or DOWN the gallery???

I went to the url that Eric supplied and read it thoroughly. The two master cylinders he referred to are not part of the BTV system, but are a part of the ATE T50 system that Mercedes contracted for as a replacement for the BTV. These cars were being raced at high speed and admittedly if the vacuum servo fails for any reason it would be difficult to stop the car. They have also determined that the original ATE system has declined significantly and is no longer stopping these cars as well as they did originally. Consequently Mercedes has contracted for a new ATE unit which carries a two-year warranty and is available from Mercedes.
http://www.emercedesbenz.com/Jun06/29_New_T50_Brake_Booster_For_Classic_Mercedes_Released.html

The unit is priced at 2500 Euros plus the VAT tax. 2500 Euros is about $3400.00 dollars. This is not a viable solution for the majority of Packard owners.

As an aside, and because I am familiar with the deterioration of die-cast metal (zinc-pest) I looked into having the master cylinder portion of the BTV copper-plated to seal off any flakes or chips of zinc that could be caught under the compensator valve. My plater said he could not successfully copper plate that casting. It just would not take and to plate the inside of that casting would be even more difficult.
If Bendix still had the die, they might be able to cast new ones. I don't know what the market would be for that and suspect it would not be self-supporting.

Randy:

The models referred to in the article you referenced are all rounded style sedans models 180/190/219/220 plus the big 300 sedan. The unit they originally used was not a Treadle Vac or Treadle Vac style power brake unit with the integral vacuum booster/master cylinder. It operated differently with the car having a convenional master cylinder
whose output goes into this ATE unit. Hydraulic pressure goes in, actuates the vacuum piston, and the piston relays its force to an internal master cylinder which produced high pressure output to operate the brake shoes. In the case of the BTV, mechanical force (foot) goes in, high pressure hydraulic pressure goes out.

The new unit looks nearly identical to the Bendix Hydrovac, used in Studebakers, 57 Cadillacs, manyu trucks and other makes for dealer installed power brakes including Chevrolet.

What is most telling is that Mercedes, one of the most respected engineering houses in the automotive world, did not engineer a dual master cylinder unit. I wonder if they're irresponsible like many of us Packard people??

i have been following and all i can say is i have some tricks to try on the oil pump when it comes time....so i hope to look into this BTV later too. i personally plan on using both in mine.

i have no idea if i will be contributing anything of worth, but eh i'll give it a shot.

Also i want to thank Fred for getting on here and taking the firestorm and still comming back. i have been waiting for the day that someone from one of the major venders was active on the board. i was suprised when i saw Kanter on here, and excited! Thanks Fred. i look forward to purchasing from you soon. i gotta get this motor rebuilt!!

anyways, i didn't have much to say about the subject, so z ya later aligator.

Hank

I rarely take word in topics regarding the BTV issuse, but I feel I have to say what I think of it, although I belive it dose not make a difference:
It took me many a hours to read this topic from the beginning to the end and my own conclusion of this BTV, is that in the end its the car owners free choice to choose weather to use a NOS or rebuild BTV or use a modern two chamber Power brake. If I had a Packard here in Estonia and wanted to use it just for driving on the roads, I might have to convert to a modern Power brake option. But If I would like to get the unice vehicles license plate I must have the BTV or it will not qualify the criteria.

The quality of the reproduction parts from US has been rather good as far as I have seen various parts,some ordered from Kanter.
There is not much that I can say, the 3 working Estonian pre-war Packard have all BTV I know of and they seem to work so far.