Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

Thanks Gusha for an excellent collection of references on this interesting topic, the following from the Wikipedia reference struck a chord:

"Some degree of control over the water injection is important. It needs to be injected only when conditions within the engine would otherwise be sufficient to cause detonation or other undesirable effects. This normally occurs when the engine is heavily loaded and running at full power, however may occur outside of these times in specialized engines or applications. Otherwise injecting water cools the combustion process unnecessarily, resulting in negative effects such as reduced efficiency or power."

This indicates why the simple, largely DIY devices, like the early "Mist Master" unit above were not very effective although the NZ article suggests otherwise.

With modern engine management systems using a computer to precisely control mixture, ignition timing and valve timing it would surely be possible to introduce water with the same precise control over flow rate and timing. I would guess it is not necessary because the modern controls have the combustion conditions close to optimum.

I think Dave's suggestion for controlling pre-ignition in our Packards by increasing the octane rating and advancing the spark is the most practical solution. The power and fuel savings claimed for water injection must be regarded with a great deal of scepticism and improved engine cooling as originally raised by JP does not appear to be a benefit.

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In the fifties there was no shortage of high octane gas and prices were not too high. So there was not much demand for water injection. Some aftermarket units were sold, and a few cars had it but it never took off.

An internet article described how Thompson Products, a large manufacturer of auto parts and accessories, spent millions developing the Vitameter in the forties.They had high hopes of selling it to auto manufacturers but it proved unnecessary once the oil companies brought out the new, high octane leaded gas. The aftermarket never took off because of the price of the device and the difficulty of getting the special fluid they sold.

At the same time they were developing other products that were much more successful like ball joint suspension. After about 10 years they dropped the Vitameter. A company that size needs to see sales in the millions of units to justify keeping something in production. Smaller companies made similar units in smaller numbers, in fact they are still available.

One disadvantage to putting them on production cars, was that you had to depend on the owner to keep the injection tank filled with the proper mix of alcohol and water. This was barely acceptable on a performance car, presumably sold to a savvy driver who took care of his car. Not acceptable on a car sold to Mrs. Peasy Weasy the garden club matron.

The Vitameter had a vacuum operated valve. High vacuum closed the valve, low vacuum opened it. This is how they matched the flow of fluid to the engine's needs. Further details in this article, as well as a couple of similar devices.

gus-stories.org/PDF/Your%20Car%20-%201950/YourCar100_114.PDF

Rusty, firstly my apologies for referring to you as Randy, the grey hairs must have gotten in the way (again). I've corrected it in my post.

I've read that article and now have a better understanding of the Vitameter and still like the concept, although how practical it would be on a 374 is a moot point. I've also noted the adverse comments about WI such as rusting, and I'm thinking this potentially is the most concerning aspect of the technology. However, I've looked around the internet and haven't found anything really useful that explains and/or demonstrates the adverse effects of WI, other than failing to keep the reservoir topped-up. I'll keep on the case for awhile yet. Regards, John

There's life in the old dog yet. I've read an -> article (German), published by BMW, that announced a breakthrough and coming high-volume application of water injection. BMW is using condensed water, which comes into being as byproduct in the air conditioner.

While browsing around I found another great article, that confirms the above mentioned activities. If you are interested in this field you'll like -> this article (English) with perfect illustrations, published by M-Power, the sporty subsidiary of BMW.






image source: frag-mutti.de

Flat head motors have a large quench area which creates a propensity for carbon build up.

However, before I start adding on gadgets to remedy motor noises I would look over the other systems. For example, if the dwell is not stable due to worn parts, or the advance curve is wrong that can cause problems. Another problem area is the heat stove under the carburetor which clogs up with carbon and inhibits vaporization.

There are three add on gadgets that could be used to reduce carbon build up and associated motor noise. A better air cleaner, a PCV system, and an EGR.

The first is easy for a do it yourself project.

The second requires engineering, but addition of a crankcase air pump would achieve same but forgo recycling of waste gases.

The third would require carburetion changes to accommodate a ported vacuum source for the EGR controller.

Not trying to shift the topic away from water injection - but I added one of these carburetor spacers and it has eliminated my issues around hot starts:dashman.net/product.html?id=203

G'day Men, since I kicked this topic off I thought it time for an update. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the value of installing a water injection system, I've put that possible project on hold until I can dig up more information. I have however, done a couple of things which appear to be helping in controlling pinging and vapor lock.

Like Andrew, I installed a 0.25" phenolic spacer between the carby and manifold, and retarded the timing a little. The distributor and vac advance were reco'ed a couple of years ago so need to do that again. I'm also trialling a Peter Packard recommendation of replacing the water coolant with a mixture of a "water wetter" additive and de-mineralised water. No problems with this so far, but it's still winter over here so I haven't been able to test the car in a stinking hot day like we often get in summer.

Apart from this, I haven't yet gone down the track of a new heavy duty radiator core but may find it necessary to do that in the future. I've also been trying to find a 6 bladed fan to fit the water pump boss but this has proved to be an impossibility thus far. One idea I'm toying with is seeing if the boss on the water pump can be changed for one that will allow a different range of fans to be considered. That will also mean another fan pulley to suit and I don't know yet what's available. A smaller diameter pulley would have the water pump spinning faster, which could be helpful for cooling at low rev's. I haven't done enough homework on this though to know whether it's a good idea and achievable.

Cheers for now, John

It's alive!
How water injections systems can create more horsepower; a detailed explanation of BMW's M4 GTS water injection engine.

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I don't understand why they don't replace the intercooler with an HVAC evaporator if their objective is to build a car their customers aren't qualified to operate on regulated motorways.

Back in the 70's Edelbrock and Holley made water injection kits.

I picked up an Edelbrock Vara-jection kit new in box at a swap meet a couple years back, plan to use it on my 85 Airstream MH w/454 when I get to that end of the project.

I am in western Washington so anyplace I go is up hill.

I see them both on E-bay from time to time.

John