Classic Disk Brakes
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Just can't stay away
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Hey there V8 Pack Fans
I recently purchased a V8 Packard, a '56 Clipper Custom and so far and enjoying the car. Upon receipt I had it safety inspected at the folks I use these days (A Classic Car shop) and they inspected it prior to any driving. I was told the car needed a full brake job, shoes wheel cylinders, drums turned, brake lines/hoses inspected and replaced, was spendy but stopping isn't optional. They told me the treadle vac booster needed a redo but I passed on that initially as they said it would be a like a manual brake car. Driving the car the brakes really seem inadequate and need more power which the treadle vac would like give, but it sounds like sticking with this is risky from a safety standpoint. Reading the posts on here about this thing I realized its a problem and a number of you are engineering work-arounds. In doing a little research I found a company in Colorado that sells this kit for disks. I wasn't really planning to change the drums for disks but am willing to do that if it gets me a master cylinder update that is safe and effective, the kit is supposed to bolt in and perhaps require rerunning a brake line. So the question I have is this a product that anyone here has had experience with good or bad? Is it effective or does it require more changes that these folks may not be spelling out? I'm going to see if I can get instructions so I have a better idea whats involved but if there is any experience here with this product would like to hear from you. Thanks Bill http://www.classicdiscbrakes.com/1951-56-Packard-Front-Disc-Brake-Conversion-w-booster-master-parkardcomplete.htm
Posted on: 2015/8/18 12:25
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ClassicCrusier
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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Looks like a very nice car. At the very least I would have the BTV working if you are going to drive it while you decide what to do on the discs. Once the BTV is working you can then decide if the original brakes are that poor. Without power working and with the low ratio on the BTV the brakes are really not capable of much.
I will let others get into the pros and cons of changing to the disc brakes but am wondering about the booster master they show as part of the kit. It appears to be a conventional tandem or dual piston setup but the booster looks fairly short compared to the universal units from ABS or MPB most are using. I would ask a lot of questions as to how they want that installed and where. If in the factory spot in place of the BTV then is it able to be used with the existing 1:1 pedal ratio or, as I suspect, actually needs the minimum of a 3 or 4:1 ratio the other modern booster/master combinations need. The pedal ratio change would be something you will have to figure out as you have probably noticed if you've been following the various posts. The booster diameter and length is critical if installed in the original spot as is access to fill the reservoir. Depending on how stock you want your car to look, it will stick out like a sore thumb when moved to the firewall and may require some other engine side changes as well.
Posted on: 2015/8/18 13:17
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Howard
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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I just called these folks and the sales guy check the kit, seems it comes with a replacement pedal so apparently they have addressed this aspect of the change over.
Posted on: 2015/8/18 14:26
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ClassicCrusier
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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I'm somewhat curious by what they are doing and where the booster unit is to go. Would be nice if they had included a photo of the pedal assy along with the rest of the kit. A photo on another page of what appears to be the same booster says it is a Lincoln item.
Posted on: 2015/8/18 14:33
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Howard
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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Home away from home
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I don't quite agree with Owen_Dyneto (Dave) about the stock Packard brakes. On a Senior car like he has that has 2INx12IN drum brakes, they are probably OK. On a Clipper, I believe the drums are more narrow and somewhat smaller. That makes them inadequate in my opinion for a car that's about the same weight. Why Packard did that, I have no idea.
The real problem is the booster & M/C. At the very least, a SINGLE M/C (like BTV) is dangerous. For example, if a wheel cylinder leaks, then pretty soon one will have NO BRAKES AT ALL due to the fluid draining out. At least with a dual M/C, you'll have HALF your brakes. Since disc brakes do not have wheel cylinders, you've eliminated that potential failure point too if you convert. Craig P.S. Nice looking Clipper!
Posted on: 2015/8/18 14:44
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Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure! Ellen Ripley "Aliens"
Time flies like an arrow. Frui |
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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Home away from home
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I question the expertise of someone who says a rebuilt Treadle-Vac is like manual brakes. You have already invested money in the brake work but didn't address the Booster. That may be a wise decision depending on the source for the rebuilding. If the brake job was just putting new seals in the wheel cylinders then that isn't too much of a waste.
Recently I watched a program on the 1955 LeMans race where a drum braked Mercedes killed 83 spectators because a drum braked Austin-Healy couldn't slow down fast enough to avoid rear ending a disc braked Jaguar. So these conversions to disc brakes are probably a safer route to go given the traffic flows today. But it depends on where you live and how you drive. The biggest problem with the drum brakes are worn drums and non-original linings. I don't care what anybody says, drum brake linings today are not as effective as the original asbestos. Every low mileage original car I have driven had better brakes than a restored system. So it's a matter of choice and the kits available don't seem to be the kind of butcher work they do at the hot rod shop. Some of these kits allow the car to be put back to original which is good.
Posted on: 2015/8/18 15:36
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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In post #6 of this thread, Craig wrote:
Quote: Since disc brakes do not have wheel cylinders, you've eliminated that potential failure point too if you convert. Not true. A hydraulically-actuated disc brake caliper still uses a piston in a cylindrical bore, and it has seals that can fail and leak. However, disc brake calipers can also become seized - without fluid ever leaking.
Posted on: 2015/8/18 17:04
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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Quite a regular
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Your brake shop seems to want to replace everything, and they have no knowledge of Bendix power brakes. I think I'd stay away from them. As others have said, properly maintained original brakes are superb. Disc brakes are NOT the answer; they are available merely as a product on which to make a profit. I have "rebuilt" several Packard brake systems, including Treadle Vacs, and was always pleased with how well a refreshed Bendix brake system works. BEWARE, and find someone who is competent, and honest, to correctly restore your Packard Bendix brakes. Also, I would
recommend NOT turning brake drums unless they are badly scored. They should always be within .020 of standard. Dwight
Posted on: 2015/8/18 18:32
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Dwight
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Re: Classic Disk Brakes
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Just can't stay away
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Just want to be clear on a couple points the car, I went and saw the car once all the drums were pulled and the following things were apparent
-Brake linings were cracked on the shoes, had not come apart yet but it was apparent they could do so I understand this is a normal form of inspection, so new shoes -there was fluid behind the dust seals at every corner so all the wheel cylinders were replaced not rebuilt. - the soft brake lines were cracked and looked questionable so those were replaced. - one of the hard brake lines had been misrouted such that it was crushed so that was corrected. - Shoes were arced to be sure they fit the drums properly. -Drums were not turned I was mistaken on that point. - Wheel bearings were checked, one replaced and repacked. I feel pretty good about what was done I don't want to be driving around on old components that were on the edge so I'm pretty sure all that was ok. The power brakes are listed as not functioning , pulls vacuum but internal diaphragm not functioning. So based on that I have a choice I guess. I'm in Minnesota and friends with Mike Dulinski which many of you may know, I was going to have him pull a core from his stock and send it to the gentlemen in Florida for a rebuild and then swap out the units so I could drive the car till that happened. Having read the website and reviewed the fact that the rebuilt units are tricky to get correct and may not be rebuilt correctly in some cases, it seemed prudent to check other solutions. I don't normally like deviating from stock but where safety and reliability are concerned I rate those as more important that authenticity. The treadle vac rebuilt and installed is probably $500 the disk brakes are a $1000 plus the labor, but all of that is small potatoes compared to hospital bills and losing the car. The car is to drive not show, I just don't want some under engineered solution and I'm not interested in the roll your own approach as that may or may not be adequate. When a company sells something it suggests they have spent some time testing it, although I'm sure some will sight exceptions to that as well, I just want the peace of mind that this car is not going to fail and crash. If a treadle Vac rebuilt by a competent builder can be relied on that's the simplest solution and I would do that, just have to wonder if that's reasonable. I appreciate the feedback, you guys have dealt with this as much as anyone a good choice seems a comprise which ever way you choose so just I'm trying to be as informed as I can be. Thanks
Posted on: 2015/8/19 0:06
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ClassicCrusier
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