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Leeedy

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#21

Home away from home

Quote:

55Packardconv wrote:
Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I'd like to ask if anyone has a line on an authentic reproduction of the 1955 Caribbean top material. There are a few of us 1955 owners that are getting ready to replace our tops, and the last place that I saw offering reproduction tops is, I believe, no longer in business. I am hoping that Leeedy will chime in here.

Hello,

This is gonna be long and probably ought to be an article instead of a posting. But since you asked and since I'm so old and time is of the essence...

Many years ago in the 1970s I had samples of original Packard top fabrics. I still have a very large selection of convertible top fabrics to this day. I made connections with major convertible top makers (companies that actually made the tops, not the fabrics). Most of these companies are gone today or absorbed into "investment" conglomerates. As for the people? Almost all of the real old-timers are gone or somewhere off in retirement. And many of the fabric makers are also gone.

I had part interest in a trim shop which is now long gone. I also got hold of original 1955 and 1956 top fabrics via a source in Southern California and in New York. I got a few tops made back then, but was only able to do pale blue inside and pink inside since these were the only two colors I was ever able to find. And that was that. Made several more in correct patterns and fabrics, but only with light inner faces.

I also had the original (ORIGINAL) patterns for 1955 and 1956 tops. These were huge and I ended up giving them to a company in SoCal that was a convertible top maker and stitched tops together for me. The very last of the two color tops I had were in boxes that disappeared when my 1956 Caribbean convertible and parts in my barn were stolen. I never had any more. This was a long time ago.

ALL 1955 and 1956 Caribbean convertible tops had the color of the center body stripe on the inside of the fabric. For instance, if your Caribbean was white/pink/charcoal (not the factory names for these colors) on the outside, then your top would be pink on the inside. If white/light green/dark metallic green, then your top would be light green on the inside. And so on. Top bows were ALWAYS white with chrome pivots.

The inner face color was NOT a "headliner" but was calendered into the actual top fabric in the manufacturing process of said fabric. In other words, the top fabric for each Caribbean was made that way. DON'T tell me that Packard wasn't on top of the luxury game in 1955 and 1956!!! And had they made the 1957s, tops they had planned would have been mind-blowing.

Now. 1955 Caribbean tops were made of Orlon, a woven fabric that today restorers have mistaken for canvas-which it most definitely was NOT. There have been some pretty awful tops hashed together in recent years. Orlon had a kind of smoothness and sheen to it. It was always an off-white color on the outside and the color of the center paint stripe on the inside. The only dead original 1955 Caribbean top that I know of existing today is on the Howard Hughes/Jean Peters Caribbean which is now in the National Packard Museum in Warren, Ohio. Unfortunately, there are people TODAY crowing and begging the museum to show the car with the top DOWN-which is just plain absurd since...
A.) a permanently lowered top definitely WILL shrink and memorize folds and become useless...
B.) Nobody will be able to see what an ORIGINAL 1955 Caribbean top actually looked like!

ANYBOY can display a Caribbean with the top down, but where will you find an ORIGINAL unmolested top on display? PLEASE, National Packard Museum... take these facts into consideration!

1956 Caribbean tops were made of a rubberized vinyl material known as Hypalon. This fabric had a grain to it. So-called modern "colonial grain" is kinda-sorta close. Kinda-sorta. But the grain used on a fabric called "Everflex" is more a dead ringer. AND IF Everflex is still being made (I don't know that it is for sure since I'm long out of the automotive biz professionally) it is also perfect due to having a very light beige color in the inner face of the material. Everflex was still being used on Rolls-Royce Corniche convertibles and elsewhere for many years. The inner face of Everflex was dye-able but it was a tough job to do it.

Making either of these tops today and doing it right is a VERY expensive, time-consuming and laborious task. The old guy who dyed inner faces of tops for me back in the 1970s-early 80s is now long dead. And his process died with him. As we speak I have been trying to get two authentic 1955 tops made-at great expense. And so far, no serious success in dyeing the inner face.

I have a fabric that is very much like Orlon and with a light beige inner face. A good start, but the inside resists dye. And the outside is very, very easily stained. Trimmers don't even like working with it. In short, a nightmare. So I'm trying to create a good dye process that will work. Not at all easy... and the fabric costs a fortune! And that's per square foot!

Barring the availability and expense of the unusual fabric I mention here. The only other alternative for 1955 is to get white vinyl convertible fabric in diamond pinpoint pattern outside and light beige inside ("diamond pinpoint" grain is a term that a good pro trimmer should easily understand). Such fabric is uncommon (most is black inner face) but can indeed be found. IF your trim shop takes time and looks. The inside has to be light because dyeing black is hopeless.

If you're going to attempt dyeing the inner face of the fabric, you'll need to start on the fabric itself. Not on an already-made top. It's too late by then. And with all of the many colors involved, this is where the train goes off the tracks-unless you've got very deep pockets.

Oh. And for 1956, the top boot itself actually was made of the same fabric as the top and yes, had color on the underside.

In short, nobody I know of is making 1955 OR 1956 Caribbean convertible tops in the correct fabric and with color on the inside as original. I've been working on two tops for over a year, first finding the fabric, obtaining, then the dye process nightmare. If I discover a proper way to do it for 1955, I'll let you know.

The important thing to remember, it is not just a matter of cutting and sewing a top up. The issue is getting the fabric.... then getting the coloring done THEN getting the top made. This is how it works.

Oh... and one final aside. In the very early 1970s I got Robbins Auto Top Company in Santa Monica, California (who were personal friends and the same guys who helped me get a tempered glass window FIRST into the Mazda Miata) to make a 1956 Caribbean top WITH color. It was very expensive, but we got the top made and it looked beautiful. Years later when a friend sold the car, the guy who bought it immediately ripped the top off, painted the car black, painted the bows black and shoved a BLACK CANVAS top on there. Ohhh was he ever proud! And ohhh was I ever sick!

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Posted on: 2020/6/16 12:05

Joe Santana

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#22

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Here are Bill and Kim Maya, San Clemente, California with their a 1956 Packard Caribbean Convertible at 2018 Pebble Beach Concours.

The gorgeous example sports a bright orange accent paint with matching bright orange top interior. Stunning when the top goes down.

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Posted on: 2020/6/16 15:02

Let the ride decide

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#23

Home away from home

There is a man from Indiana who has done a few Caribbean's and has had his cars at PAC meets as well as some Texas Packard meets.

This was at the 2018 meet

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Posted on: 2020/6/16 15:22

Let the ride decide

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#24

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Here is another original 55 top. This car was for sale in 2019 in Washington state. I wonder where it is now.

Pictures are from the sales listing.

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Posted on: 2020/6/16 15:37

ewrecks

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#25

Home away from home

I read with interest Leeedy's comments on the difficulty in securing a top with the color matched interior.
I had the misfortune of having a top prepared by Klass Collections that attempted to replicate the original tops by sewing in a fabric liner.
In retrospect.it probably would not have worked very well since the fabric liner added buik and would have probably not responded well to raising and lowering.
As it turned out the top was not cut correctly and the upholstery shop ruined it during the attempt to install.....then Klass Collections advised that they were out of the top business.
Ultimately, I was able to secure 10 yards of the pinpoint with tan inner color through Superior Tops and sprayed the inner side with a water based dye from World Products. Superior assembled a new top from the material and the top looks fine.
Was it worth the effort and expense for a car that was not built for the show circuit....doubtful....very doubtful. But ...it does look nice.
I spoke to a Bill Hirsch at the ACCA meet at Hershey during the debacle and he relate that he had owned a 1955 Caribbean in his youth and that while the looks of the car had inspired its purchase, it was one of the worst cars he ever owned. Aside from the transmission that locked in park and the torsion suspension that either shot skyward or popped up in tu rear and required a tow truck and a cab ride, his biggest gripe was the convertible top. He stated that the material shrunk and would not allow the top to latch. I think he said it needed replaced at least twice during his short term of ownership. The bigger problem was that the front seal at the top of the windshield did not do it's job....the front floors flooded every time the car sat out in the rain. He said he was never so happy to replace a car.
By coincidence , a friend from New Jersey had purchased and restored his original 55 Caribbean and bugged him about buying the car of his youth. Hirsch said that there was not enough money on the planet to pay him to take that car back. LOL
That was my only dealing with Bill Hirsch and I was sorry to see the notice of his passing. I have dealt with the company since that time but Mr Hirsch took the time to shoot the bull with this stranger and gave me a fond memory. R.I. P.

Posted on: 2020/6/16 15:53

Leeedy

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#26

Home away from home

Quote:

ewrecks wrote:
I read with interest Leeedy's comments on the difficulty in securing a top with the color matched interior.
I had the misfortune of having a top prepared by Klass Collections that attempted to replicate the original tops by sewing in a fabric liner.
In retrospect.it probably would not have worked very well since the fabric liner added buik and would have probably not responded well to raising and lowering.
As it turned out the top was not cut correctly and the upholstery shop ruined it during the attempt to install.....then Klass Collections advised that they were out of the top business.
Ultimately, I was able to secure 10 yards of the pinpoint with tan inner color through Superior Tops and sprayed the inner side with a water based dye from World Products. Superior assembled a new top from the material and the top looks fine.
Was it worth the effort and expense for a car that was not built for the show circuit....doubtful....very doubtful. But ...it does look nice.
I spoke to a Bill Hirsch at the ACCA meet at Hershey during the debacle and he relate that he had owned a 1955 Caribbean in his youth and that while the looks of the car had inspired its purchase, it was one of the worst cars he ever owned. Aside from the transmission that locked in park and the torsion suspension that either shot skyward or popped up in tu rear and required a tow truck and a cab ride, his biggest gripe was the convertible top. He stated that the material shrunk and would not allow the top to latch. I think he said it needed replaced at least twice during his short term of ownership. The bigger problem was that the front seal at the top of the windshield did not do it's job....the front floors flooded every time the car sat out in the rain. He said he was never so happy to replace a car.
By coincidence , a friend from New Jersey had purchased and restored his original 55 Caribbean and bugged him about buying the car of his youth. Hirsch said that there was not enough money on the planet to pay him to take that car back. LOL
That was my only dealing with Bill Hirsch and I was sorry to see the notice of his passing. I have dealt with the company since that time but Mr Hirsch took the time to shoot the bull with this stranger and gave me a fond memory. R.I. P.

Hello...

Most people who end up with convertibles never seem to stop and consider that they have the unusual ON TOP OF unusual. No pun intended. They approach owning the convertible as if it is simply another car. A convertible (especially from the 1950s-or any old one) just plain requires extra knowledge and extra care. Extra work. If an owner doesn't choose to accept this responsibility, the results will soon make themselves known.

And different drivers/owners often have different experiences with convertibles. My first ex managed to smash the tempered glass rear window out of my brand-new 1968 GTO convertible-the very FIRST time she lowered the top! (...and this is a person with advanced degrees who had been taught how to operate the top)! Another managed to burn out the transmission on my Cadillac FIRST time driven! One drive! And it was a GM automatic on a Northstar engine-not an Ultramatic on a Packard. ONE afternoon's drive and it came back burned to a crisp! To this day, even the Cadillac dealer (a family member by the way) could never figure out how this was done! The same driver went on to get an umbrella caught in the top mechanism of my Lexus. And this was a highly-educated person. Me? Never had troubles with any of these cars. At least, not those kinds of troubles.

Loved Bill Hirsch and with all due respect, no idea what happened with his 1955 Caribbean. But I owned two of them over the years... and never a problem with the tops OR water leakage OR the Ultramatics. So? It's machinery. Things happen. And there are some cars that are just plain haunted with problems. But this does not condemn all for what happens or happened with one or some.

And I have been over this Ultramatic "locking-in-Park" thing many times. MOST automatic transmissions back then didn't even have a Park position! So this was an advanced feature. Nobody ever points this fact out today while repeating the Ultramatic "locked-up" stories.

Yes there were some issues-especially with maladjusted linkage that created such a problem. Packard addressed this adjustment problem and it WAS repairable- often very easily. Bulletins were issued by the factory. And... as I have said in the past, I have seen 1955 Packards where instead of doing a simple adjustment or analysis, someone (including tow-truck drivers) decided to King-Kong the gearshift lever into submission. This to the extent of bending the lever into the shape of a "J"! I've known of cars that were actually towed off to the junkyard with the transmission supposedly "locked up in Park". When all I had to do was reach under the car and push UP on the linkage ... followed by a popping and "klunk" out of Park! I won a $50 bet with a junkyard guy over this very thing (he wasn't very happy when I drove off with this "junk transmission Packard"). Maladjusted mechanism. It is machinery.

When I was involved with a trim shop in SoCal, we had customers who would show up with tops that wouldn't raise or wouldn't latch... after leaving them down for months... until the rainy season started! Almost always the top was fried from the inside out and shrunk... and worse. Most of the time they never bothered to use the boot-if they even had one! Nobody ever checked the rams or cleaned the rams or checked the reservoir fluid. Just operate the switch and get mad if it didn't work... and blame it on the car! We'd get the top working and then they'd come back complaining the header was leaking. Well? With the header bow rubber weatherstrip either burnt into brittle bacon or never having had pressure against it, why should it suddenly seal perfectly?

Now for the 1955 Caribbean convertible top. I hate to say it, but Orlon convertible tops WERE state-of-the-art by the late 1940s/early 1950s. Several car makers used the stuff and it was considered "modern." But the LIFE of a car back then was 75,000 to 100,000 miles OR less. And the life of a convertible top was 2 to 3 years...TOPS! And if you were constantly cycling the top up and down, not taking extra care to assist it folding, not using the boot, leaving the top lowered for extended periods, leaving the car parked out in the weather (top UP or DOWN) the top degraded faster and faster. They changed the top fabric for 1956 for a reason. But even the new stuff went bad... and the next generation technology tops that followed those degenerated too. That's eventually what fabrics do.

As for dyeing a convertible top inner face AFTER the top is made... wow. This is wayyyyy too late. How do you get even edges? How do you get even coloring? How do you not get dye on the seams? How do you prevent bleeding? How do you lay the fabric flat? How do you spray fabric with dye when said fabric is treated to repel moisture and the spray beads up rather than absorbs? All these are serious issues to consider.

Posted on: 2020/6/16 18:12

Leeedy

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#27

Home away from home

Quote:

JoeSantana wrote:
Here are Bill and Kim Maya, San Clemente, California with their a 1956 Packard Caribbean Convertible at 2018 Pebble Beach Concours.

The gorgeous example sports a bright orange accent paint with matching bright orange top interior. Stunning when the top goes down.

Thanks for sharing.

Hmmm Naples Orange with dual Yankee Pacesetter mirrors on the doors. And from SoCal. Very familiar. It would be nice to see more pics and know the serial number. I was unaware that a 1956 Caribbean convertible was exhibited at Pebble Beach. News to me!

Are there more pics and info?

Posted on: 2020/6/16 19:27

Leeedy

Re: Convertible Top on a '55 Caribbean

#28

Home away from home

Quote:

Let the ride decide wrote:
Here is another original 55 top. This car was for sale in 2019 in Washington state. I wonder where it is now.

Pictures are from the sales listing.

Yes, I recall this Caribbean.

There are still a few 1955 and 1956 Caribbeans with original tops hanging on in various conditions. But certainly the Hughes Caribbean is the best of the 1955s existing.

There were two 1955 Caribbeans in SoCal back in the 1970s that had reasonably decent original tops. One (a Rose Quartz) went to Canada, where the top was immediately removed... and tossed, not even a scrap of it saved. Sad.

Thanks for sharing. I never get tired of looking at Caribbean top pics.

Posted on: 2020/6/16 19:39