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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#11
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58L8134
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Hi

Of the many tragedies that resulted from Packard's collapse, that no other company picked up the tooling and rights to the V-8 is one.

There was one company which could have benefited had Packard management shopped the engine to truckmakers when they were in development stage, that being International Harvester. That they didn't shop it around, given their experience with White and the 245 c.i. six, is just puzzling. IH would begin offering it's own V-8 in 1957, at what must have been tremendous expense for a relatively small company.

Had Packard contracted to supply IH engines begining in 1955, IH would have been obliged to assume production and further development after 1956. However unglamorous its application, IH would have corrected whatever shortcoming the engine had in subsequent iterations.

As I recall, IH had displacements up to 534 c.i.. Other than being thirsty, it was one rugged, long-lived engine.

Steve

Posted on: 2011/2/12 8:29
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#12
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Jim L. in OR
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"Don't go for pinks. Definitely an auto urban legend utterly without basis. The RR and the Packard engine share nothing in common, other than being V8s."

Thanks Jack. I'm not surprised. Just one of many stupendous "errors" I've found in Hemming's Classic Car & Collectible Automobile - which is why I didn't re-up my subscription to both. Nice pictures, but really unreliable when it comes to facts.
Thanks for setting me straight!

Posted on: 2011/2/12 11:34
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#13
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fred kanter
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I've been on Hemmings/Rich Lentinello's case for years on the subject of continuing egregious factual errors. Some people just refuse to listen.

They had a Packard issue with a sidebar on the 1930 734 Speedster just filled with misinformation. I wrote Lentinello telling him and he siad the guy who wrote it said he was an "expert". Rich knows me and knows I own a Speedster as it's on the cover of Hemmings Packard book, never asked for any help.

I will forward him you letter, I told him that other hobbyists laugh at Hemmings Classic Car with all of its errors.

So sad.

Posted on: 2011/2/12 11:57
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#14
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BH
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Not to go further off-topic, but the problem with many of today's hobby magazines is that more and more articles are being written by mere writers and reporters who, even if they have a genuine connection to the hobby, lack sufficient appreciation and knowledge of the particular subject of a given article.

Of course, no one person can know everything about every marque and model, but no matter how much research a writer does and how many notes they take, their work is only as good as their sources and fact-checking (if any). Sadly, I've heard/read plenty of inaccuracies that come right out of the mouths of some ill-informed vehicle owners - not merely misquotes.

Last but not least, the end result often suffers at the hand of an equally detached editor, whose only concern is page layout, deadlines, and ad revenue.

Posted on: 2011/2/12 12:10
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#15
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Jack Vines
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Quote:
I've been on Hemmings/Rich Lentinello's case for years on the subject of continuing egregious factual errors. Some people just refuse to listen.


You and me both, Fred! I've gotten the same aggressive responses from Lentinello. It's amazing to me he's kept the job all these years. I guess wider marketing, higher circulation and cheap freelance writers is way more important to Hemmings than the articles being accurate and the facts checked.

The best in the field, Automobile Quarterly and Road & Track, for example, have an errata section and will graciously thank those who add knowledge. Lentinello is the only editor who in fifty years has gotten hostile with me for correcting errors or offering a differing opinion.

Once he actually phoned me to chew me out. "You so-called experts just take the magazines to nit-pick our stories about your cars. Most of our subscribers are the 99% who own one hobby car and don't know much about it and those who don't even own a collector car but want to someday. Ours are general interest magazines which features different cars each month. Your marque clubs can have the discussions on what color the bolt heads should be. That's not our focus."

Bottom line - he knows they get some of it wrong every month and he doesn't care enough to try to get it right. That would cost too much.

jack vines

Posted on: 2011/2/12 12:34
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#16
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Jack Vines
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Quote:
There was one company which could have benefited had Packard management shopped the engine to truckmakers when they were in development stage, that being International Harvester. That they didn't shop it around, given their experience with White and the 245 c.i. six, is just puzzling. IH would begin offering it's own V-8 in 1957, at what must have been tremendous expense for a relatively small company. Had Packard contracted to supply IH engines begining in 1955, IH would have been obliged to assume production and further development after 1956. However unglamorous its application, IH would have corrected whatever shortcoming the engine had in subsequent iterations. As I recall, IH had displacements up to 534 c.i.. Other than being thirsty, it was one rugged, long-lived engine.


All the large gas V6, V8 and V12 truck engines were inherently thirsty.

It's never just about engineering. It's always about money. Two thoughts:

One problem with adapting the Packard V8 to truck duty was it has such small main bearings and weak bearing webs in the block, it would have required a lot of work on the patterns and cores. The fix would have been easy to do, but no one saw enough value to take it on.

During that time frame, Ford tooled up for a big truck V8, GMC made truck-specific V6 and V12 engines, IH designed their own small-to-large V8s. Dodge is the only one I don't remember having a truck-specific engine. The Chrysler hemi was used in a few medium trucks.

Since none of these manufacturers wanted anything to do with the Packard V8 for truck use and GM even passed on it for their big block cars, there must have been some inherent design problems they didn't care to tackle.

Another possibility, since the S-P bailout with Curtiss-Wright was a Republican-engineered dodge to allow the S-P losses to be applied against the C-W government contract profits, possibly it was an even larger tax avoidance if all the new engine tooling investment was scrapped as a total loss.

Quote:
After six months of negotiations, Curtiss-Wright and Studebaker-Packard finally came to terms last week on "Operation Rescue." The two companies will not merge--at least not right away. But they will tie themselves together under a "joint program" agreement, with Curtiss-Wright running Studebaker-Packard and taking an option on enough Studebaker stock for a formal merger later on. For Enginemaker Curtiss the big bait was the promise of some $500 million in new defense contracts from the Pentagon. Up to now, failure of such contracts to come through had been the major stumbling block. Though the Administration was anxious to save Studebaker, it was worried about the political effects of such a rescue operation. But now both companies have solid promises of contracts, spread over several years. $50 Million for Now. For Studebaker the bait was equally tempting: $35 million in cash from Curtiss, enough to keep the company in business. Curtiss will buy all Studebaker's defense inventories (mostly jet engine parts), take a twelve-year lease on two plants at Utica, Mich, and South Bend, Ind. In addition, Studebaker's bank credit (it has already borrowed $29.8 million) will be raised to $45 million, thus giving it a total of $50 million for immediate needs. There is a chance for more. If Curtiss decides to merge and exercises its stock option within the next two years, it will pay $25 million for 5,000,000 shares of Studebaker stock. The merged company will also be able to apply Studebaker's big $70 million tax loss against overall profits. After six months of negotiations, Curtiss-Wright and Studebaker-Packard finally came to terms last week on "Operation Rescue." The two companies will not merge--at least not right away. But they will tie themselves together under a "joint program" agreement, with Curtiss-Wright running Studebaker-Packard and taking an option on enough Studebaker stock for a formal merger later on. For Enginemaker Curtiss the big bait was the promise of some $500 million in new defense contracts from the Pentagon. Up to now, failure of such contracts to come through had been the major stumbling block. Though the Administration was anxious to save Studebaker, it was worried about the political effects of such a rescue operation. But now both companies have solid promises of contracts, spread over several years. $50 Million for Now. For Studebaker the bait was equally tempting: $35 million in cash from Curtiss, enough to keep the company in business. Curtiss will buy all Studebaker's defense inventories (mostly jet engine parts), take a twelve-year lease on two plants at Utica, Mich, and South Bend, Ind. In addition, Studebaker's bank credit (it has already borrowed $29.8 million) will be raised to $45 million, thus giving it a total of $50 million for immediate needs. There is a chance for more. If Curtiss decides to merge and exercises its stock option within the next two years, it will pay $25 million for 5,000,000 shares of Studebaker stock. The merged company will also be able to apply Studebaker's big $70 million tax loss against overall profits. Predictors & Mercedes. Under the present deal, Studebaker will consolidate all automaking at South Bend, leaving the defense business to Curtiss. With its new funds, it will be able to bring out a 1957 Studebaker line on schedule. However it will probably stop making Packards for a year, wait until 1958, when it can develop an interchangeable body shell with Studebaker along the lines of its Packard Predictor dream car. Another possibility: that West Germany's Daimler-Benz will come in on the agreement, use Studebaker's dealer setup to distribute Mercedes cars and trucks in the U.S. Eventually, Studebaker might also build Mercedes products in the U.S. President James Nance will step down as Studebaker's chief executive, remain only as a consultant to the board of directors. Into his place will go Harold E. Churchill, 53, Studebaker's general manager, who has been with the company since 1926. But the real boss will be Curtiss-Wright President Roy T. Hurley, himself a veteran automan, who learned the fine points of the industry as Ford's director of manufacturing. Taking over Curtiss in 1949 when it was doing poorly, he cut costs and boosted production so effectively that the company turned a profit of $35 million in 1955. Now, with the Studebaker-Packard deal, he is going back to a business he knows even better.


jack vines

Posted on: 2011/2/12 13:21
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#17
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55PackardGuy
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Quote:

MIDan wrote:
On a somewhat related topic, I STILL think it's cool that Lou Senter, back in the 1950s, had the first rail/dragster to go 150 MPH, and it was powered by a Packard V-8!

I've never been able to find a pic of it to post here....


MIDan,

You have been chasing this fone or over a year. Maybe it's time to compile a few possible leads. The caption on this one reads:

Belly Tank digger. Seems to be a little light on driver safety accommodations. Hard to tell in this pic. Is that a Packard motor? Bakersfield 1958

Attach file:



jpg  (34.88 KB)
917_4d583f25df4e3.jpg 600X402 px

Posted on: 2011/2/13 15:25
Guy

[b]Not an Expert[/
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#18
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55PackardGuy
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Here's the pic referenced above. I still can't figure out how to put a pic within a block of text.

This link takes you to a photo that might look familiar to MIDan:
amazon.com/Merchants-Speed-Americas-Perf ... =UTF8&s=books&qid=1297630228&sr=1-1
Click on Look Inside, choose Cover, scroll down to page 6.
Below is courtesy of Eric the Turbopackman. A similar-looking car, but maybe Packard powered? The design looks a lot like the one above w/out the nose cone

Attach file:



jpg  (14.14 KB)
917_4d58431634a08.jpg 425X278 px

Posted on: 2011/2/13 15:46
Guy

[b]Not an Expert[/
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Re: Packard V-8 CID race What if?
#19
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Jim L. in OR
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When I was in high school in the mid 60's, the Speech/Drama instructor was 10 years older than we students. At a cast party following a play, he told of when he was in high school he and some buddies wanted to build a car for the local drag races. We're talking mid 50's here so they got a hold of a Henry J and the engine from a then new Packard that had been totaled and put the two together. The only problem was when they tried it out and stomped down on the gas, the Packard V8 put out so much torque that all the car would do was cut cookies until the poor Henry J rear end blew up. That was the end of their dream of fame and glory!

Posted on: 2011/2/13 18:39
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan
1951 200 Deluxe Touring Sedan (parts ?)
1951 Patrician Touring Sedan
1955 Patrician Touring Sedan
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« 1 (2)





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