Packard Forum Index » Modification Discussion

Jim, the purist in me would love to have a good running 320 to put in that car and the mechanic would love not to have to make any modifications to the firewall, clutch rod, and engine mounts. BUT, wouldn't shipping from AZ be a bear? Either way, I'm intrigued and would like to know more. I live close to Indy and try to avoid long trips these days for reasons that many of the older men would appreciate. You can reach me at gene at grhouse dot org or call me on my cell at 615-426-3348 EDT.

For everyone else, now would be a good time to weigh in on the positive points of the 1939 320 engine versus the 1949 327 with Thunderbolt Head (I hope I got that right because I'm getting tired). A good healthy discussion will help me make up my own mind as to which is the better engine to go with on this fine old car. Gene

Gene, take a look at --> this.

It really matters how you define "better"...more reliable, parts more available, faster, more fun, options for upgrades and the 327 is better.

More original, rock the boat less, easier to install, cost less if you already have one that fits, well, the 320 looks like the winner.


I already know what i'd do, i'd put that 327 in. Then something would break on it

Good luck either way you go Gene!

So much depends on how you intend to get enjoyment from the car, and if you anticipate selling it at some point, what future owners might want to do with it.

It's a bona-fide CCCA Classic. Not withstanding Packard's issuing service guidelines for a later engine, per CCCA judging rules I believe you would be disqualified from eligibility for judging (someone might double-check me on this). On PAC judging, it's a mandatory 16 point deduction which pretty much takes you out of contention for anything on the National level. I don't know what AACA's position is but I'm sure the penalty is severe.

If you're not interested in maintaining historical authenticity and all you are concerned about is saving money on current or future engine rebuild costs and desire a more modern engine, then the lack of originality would be of diminished consequence. The 327 engine benefits from nearly 20 years of design improvements and is surely a more modern and easier to maintain design.

As the car is a bona fide Classic, my choice would be to maintain the originality.

I, personally, would rather maintain the originally of the car also given the chance and ability. But, the original engine may be spoken for already. This is something I am still sorting out. Second, I was approached about another 1939 engine that a gentleman wanted to sell for several times what I am paying for this car.
I've taught school a good part of my life and teachers do not earn adequate wages considering the jobs they have to do. Consequently, my budget would not support that engine. I am still hopeful that another one, that is more reasonable will show up but it was explained to me that these engines are quite valuable.
At the same time, the original engine is in pieces and I'm not sure I'd have the ability to sort it out and re-assemble it properly after being told how complicated it is compared to the 327. Of course, that just made me want to try doing it . All I know for sure, right now, is that the next few weeks will sort things out for the car and probably the engine.
Gene

This is a quick addition to the previous note. So far, a few people both here and especially Dave on packardclub.org have volunteered their time and knowledge to help me put together the engine that is in pieces if I can get it. In addition, my neighbor, who has won 7 Golds so far for his restored T-Bird, has volunteered his time and knowledge both in working on the the body work and on the engine. This outpouring of support and concern for maintaining the integrity of the original car has been very touching to me and forces me to "go the extra mile" with my meager resources to attempt to maintain the integrity of this classic.

I may never show it but I will try to keep it original so that the next person (after all I am 61 and there will be a caretaker after me of this fine classic) may want a show car. I will endeavor to put the car back to rights. I may have to leave the interior less than perfect and the exterior unpainted for that next person but I'll try to leave the car complete.

On another note, for those of you that know me and some of the issues I've had during the last couple of years, the doctor has reduced the medication I'm on by 33% and my mind is clearing up more and my memory (and confidence) is improving. I can think a lot better!

I want to thank all of you for your comments and will welcome continuing comments.

Gene

Gene, I am not sure what to say, other than a set of unfinished connecting rod bearings are $1200 dollars for a 320, excluding the cost of sizing and fitment. The other option is to do major modifications to the connecting rods and fit newer bearings. Ultimately, I could find no one to perform this task for me, and had to do it myself. It really sounds like you are on a very tight budget. Keep in mind that Kanter 288/327 Engine Overhaul Kits are $869-1229 (basic to deluxe). That's less than a set of unsized 320 rod bearings.

What ever direction you choose to go, I wish you all the best, but understand that with a cracked block, and likely needing total overhaul, it will likely run three to four times the price I am asking for a complete engine and seems like it could kill this project before it gets off the ground.

That is something I will not know until I actually get the parts. According to the owner if was carefully disassembled and the block was sent out for repair. For all we know at this point there may even have been rebuild parts ordered and on-hand to rebuild this engine. If so, they will go with the engine. If it is beyond my financial ability at this time to rebuild it then I'll preserve the parts carefully and stick the engine I have available in it just to get it on the road. At least it will be preserved for the next generation or the next person and I can always work on it a little at a time as funds become available. Maybe I'll hit the Lotto or something.
I mean, what are the options? If I do not try to preserve the integrity of the car and the engine gets sold off then it becomes a parts car or a hybrid until someone can find the correct year engine to put in there but they are becoming more rare. And, I've seen pictures of this car. It is simply too nice to do that to. The car deserves a chance, even a small one, to travel the roads again under its own power. If I have to sell my 36 Chevy to make that happen then I may have to sacrifice that. Gene

"...Actually, I think you have "hit the nail on the head". That is the decision I've come to on this. Packard, based on this literature, has already "sanctioned" this type of engine replacement as being within a legitimate action taken by Packard dealers. So, why should we look at it any differently, or maybe I'm just trying to convince myself. Either way, the result is the same."

Hi Gene

I endorse your decision to make this engine swap, both on the practical usage you intend to make and on the realistic conclusion that restoration of the 320 ci is beyond your mechanical and financial capability.
Frankly, Packard service letters detailing this swap where a tacit admission this heavily-modified version to fit in the Junior chassis wasn't one of their more robust powerplants. At the time those cars were still used cars from which their owners expected continued service. The fact the engine proved not as durable and troublefree as their usual reputation caused more potential customer loss, unless a suitable replacement could be supplied.

The only compelling reason to stay with the original engine is if the car is a convertible coupe or convertible sedan to maintain it's resale value. Any of the sedans or coupe are not so rare that a conversion should be an issue. When the car is restored and you're enjoying it, continue to gather the necessary parts etc. for the 320, restoring those that you are able without huge investment.
Then, when a purist takes you to task for the swap, inform him that you have the 320 awaiting and ready for restoration and that if he wants to foot the bill, you'll be glad to swap the restored 320 back into the car. Nothing like a fellow having to put his money where his mouth is to bring him to reality!

Steve

BTW: I've considered a postwar 288/327 swap into a '20's Six with a missing engine.

If I was in a possition to help Gene, I certainly would do my best to do so - you show a great deal of understanding in what it takes to be the caretaker of a classic piece of machinery such as the 17.

The final decision is, of course, yours but I can't help but think that if it were me in your situation I would:-
1 Grab the car and what ever engine/parts you can get hold of - that's a bit of a no-brainer.
2 Assess exactly what you had and work out the options from there - much easier once it is all sitting in front of you.
3 Keep in mind that if you can find an engine - any engine - that will drop in with little alteration then you could do this and drive the car while making the rebuilding of the original engine an additional, longer term project.

So is there any reason that you might not be able to have your cake and eat it too?