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Gerd, be pleased to. After all, it is about correct information being shown on this site. The lack of any Briggs body numbers in O_D's data base, is an indication that the traditional bodied Packards continued to me made at EGB, but not a certain answer. I'll see what I can find out about this.

(o[]o)

I've seen metal tags with body-type numbers followed by other numerals on 41-42 conventional bodies. I even have photos of one or more of them. Problem is, unlike the postwar tags, it doesn't have "Briggs" embossed on the tag, just the number on a plain tag screwed to the engine side of the cowl. Perhaps a precursor to the later style Briggs tag?

Now if I had a picture of a tag from a 41 or 42 Clipper and they had the same size, style, font, etc., then I think we might be able to draw a conclusion.

I still believe Briggs got the entire Packard body production beginning in 1941; comments about that in the Kimes-edited book (not that even the best-researched books can't have errors) are a bit vague, just basically saying Briggs convinced Packard they could produce the bodies cheaper. Doesn't say all bodies, doesn't say some bodies.

I don't think there is any doubt that Briggs (who then owned LeBaron) built the 1941 LeBaron sport broughams and 7-pass sedans and limos which were based on the conventional bodies; if they did them, why not all the conventional bodies?

Good topic!

O_D, I just read through the pertinent sections of the AQ book, and like you say it is vague. I called an expert on the 1940s about this. He did not know the answer to this question either. He just thought that since the "traditional" body production was in place that Packard left it and only contracted out the Clipper bodies. He is most curious though, and wants me to let him know what we find out. I have another call in, and awaiting a return. Packard history has more wrinkles in it than I ever imagined. Good stuff!

(o[]o)

JW, something else that may or may not be intertwined with this is the curious omission of thief-proof numbers on the first approx. 8000 1940 cars. Most had the end brackets (sidewise triangles) though not all did, noteably the Henney and chassis sales. After the first more-or-less 8000 cars the thief-proof numbers reappear thru the end of the year in the normal fashion.

I've often wondered if this was somehow related to the onset of preparations for the relocation of body-building dies and equipment to Briggs - but that's just my own speculation, there could be many other reasons.

Out of curiosity I looked in the book The Packard Story: The Car and the Company by Robert E Turnquist. In it he mentions that the LeBarons and "MOST" of the Packard bodies made in 1940 were made by Briggs . Not much help is it?

Let's take a break to understand and reconsider.

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Dave & Gator, to conjure up connotations of a P-51 the accompaniment of a PT boat seems to be appropriate.

Ok boys, turn up the volume of your soundcard, switch the light off and put the pedal to the metal to pull away at fast speed from rear.



sources
pic: www.munitionen.de
sound: www.sounddogs.com

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Nothing short of perfect mechanical harmony Guscha!

Here's a couple of good examples of what a 12 cylinder Packard ensemble sounds like when it's strapped to wings...

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ys7QqNTASWk

This Merlin's singin' it's tune...sounds like its at max RPM at the same time the supercharger's screamin' for more...
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8X-kgOn5G6Q

That was the sound of freedom in the 1940's...makes hair stand up where ya' don't have any.

Well, I think I have found something that substantiates that Briggs did indeed build most all of the Packard bodies from June 1940 on.

L. Morgan Yost, author of the "The End of an Era" the section covering the 17th through 20th series in the Automobile Quarterly book - "Packard a History of the Motor Car and the Company" - writes in a foot note talking about Packard's preparation for war and the outside storage of the body dies.

"After storage for a while, the body dies were then sold to various buyers including the Soviet Union where the ghost of the Packard later appeared as the ZIS. This disposal of the dies was not as reckless as it might appear. Briggs had supplied some body panels for the regular Packard line beginning in 1938, and that company was able to fill the breach by producing all Packard bodies from June 1940 on most of these the new Clipper shells."

Other authors also write about the old "traditional" or "conventional" body dies going to the Soviet Union at the beginning of World War II. This subject is well covered on this site in its own discussion forum, and I will not comment further on it here.

Actually, this was a fun research task for me, and I hope it helps to clear the air on the Briggs-Packard question. Gerd, thanks for prompting me do this. O_D, right again. It would be nice to see a photo of one of these early Briggs body tags.

(o[]o)

John, Gator, Dave & Dave, first of all my heartfelt thanks!
John, be careful in using the past tense, the opera ain't over until the fat lady sings. I'm in the process of withdraw troops for the counterattack but need a bit more time.

artillery preparation

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"various" is a stretchable term. Legal obligations to keep records are less stretchable. There is a consensus that both the Packard Motor Car Company and Briggs Manufacturing Co have been serious enterprises. There is another consensus that the sale of a complete product line is a big deal. But even small deals like the sale of a car, even the sale of a single screw is accompanied by paperwork.



[picture source: www.etsy.com]

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Thanks for that info, it's been an interesting thread and still what I'd call not completely answered. I believe information subsequent to the AQ book, and much of it from a side-by-side comparison of 41/42 Packards and a ZIS here in the US, pretty much refutes the use of Packard's dies at least for the exterior sheet metal, most especially the rear portions of the car. Dies could have been modified, I suppose. Time for Gusha to elaborate on the major body panel differences.

As to the original question, I've sent inquiries to several other Packard historians - we'll see what comes back.

Here's the picture you asked for. It's on a 1941 LeBaron 7-pass sedan. Whether or not it was applied by Briggs is an open question. I forget the source of the photo, apologies to the original photographer.

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