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Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#1
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64avanti
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BB Chebby springs & retainers can be had for well under $100 for a brand new set but my engine shop wants $120 to machine the seat areas for the smaller diameter springs.
New Packard springs can be had for $100-$120 it appears, but what do do about the soft retainers.
I can easily harden parts in a small oven that will go to 2000F but all I know is that alloys differ and you really need to know what you are dealing with.
It would be easy to set up shop & go into the retainer hardening business for you guys willing to spend the postage & maybe a six pack but any advise on how to determine what procedure to use?

Posted on: 2014/9/17 17:12
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#2
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Owen_Dyneto
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Are the hardened (56) spring retainers that hard to find? I had no problem getting a set a year or two ago. And with the number of 56 engines languishing away almost for the taking, plenty of used ones should be available.

Just a guess, but if you buy the blue print for the part from the PPG it may well show some detail about the hardening specs and perhaps the process used.

Posted on: 2014/9/17 17:16
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
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Troy Taylor
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You may want to look into Cryogenics, This is what I use. I use to work for this clutch shop and we hardened all engine and trany parts with this process.

I also use it on my rotors and brake drums, I can garantee you will never have to turn them again, they do not wear. When I get to the engine on my project, I am looking at doing the crank,cam, and some other items.

http://www.cryostrength.com/home.html

Cryogenic Processing is a one time, permanent and irreversible treatment that affects the entire object, not just the surface.

Cryogenics is a form of heat treat. The material being treated is exposed to extremely cold temperatures in a controlled atmosphere. As the material drops in temperature the molecular movement starts to slow down and the individual molecules move closer together. When the temperature is maintained at below -300? F the molecules virtually stop moving and become very compact. Upon thawing at a controlled rate they begin to spread out evenly, creating a consistent molecular pattern. When the material becomes room temperature again all the molecules are now distributed equally and aligned in an extremely consistent grain pattern. The new consistent grain structure distributes the flow of energy evenly throughout the entire object, eliminating stress points. This elimination of stress points creates a consistent and evenly distributed microstructure. The treated material has a new grain pattern with no weak points and is stronger and more durable than ever before.

In scientific terms the process is a transformation of the retained austenite structure into a martensite atom structure. The soft retained austenite atom structure is changed by using the correct cycle of temperature changes into its harder form, which is a martensite atom structure. This is the actual strengthening agent.

A good comparison can be made between the Cryogenic Process and the quenching of melted metal ore. Quenching is the rapid cooling of metal using water or oil. The Cryogenic Process can be thought of in the same fashion, except that Cryogenics takes the quenching process to -300 degrees F and is a dry process.

Posted on: 2014/9/17 18:31
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#4
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64avanti
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Hi Troy,
Good stuff on Cryogenics... but the dial on my Kenmore Fridge seems to be missing the -300 mark :) Meanwhile, I have a small scientific oven sitting here ready to go.
And if anybody has a set of hard retainers out there, let's talk.

Posted on: 2014/9/17 19:42
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#5
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Owen_Dyneto
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Maybe I'm a little out of date scientifically regarding the -300 deg. F, but as I recall -273 F. (or 0 deg. Kelvin) was "absolute zero" where all molecular motion was thought to cease, and a temperature that has never been reached though it has been closely approached.

Posted on: 2014/9/18 7:57
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
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Troy Taylor
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yeh, I am sure they rounded up for their literature, but it works great in all the items Ive seen and had done.

In fact, I am taking my brake drums over today to have done. Nick will center grind the drums, Freeze, and regrind to shore up.

Posted on: 2014/9/18 8:08
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#7
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Jack Vines
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Quote:
Maybe I'm a little out of date scientifically regarding the -300 deg. F, but as I recall -273 F. (or 0 deg. Kelvin) was "absolute zero" where all molecular motion was thought to cease, and a temperature that has never been reached though it has been closely approached.


Owen has the right numbers, but is putting them in the wrong scale.

Quote:
absolute zero is taken as −273.15? on the Celsius scale (International System of Units),[1][2] which equates to −459.67? on the Fahrenheit scale (United States customary units).[3] The corresponding Kelvin and Rankine temperature scales set their zero points at absolute zero by definition.


jack vines

Posted on: 2014/9/18 10:41
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#8
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Owen_Dyneto
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Jack, thanks for refreshing my memory and correcting me.

I'm curious about your opinion on hardening the friction surface of brake drums. From what I'd read years back the centrifuse cast iron surface was specifically selected for optimum frictional properties with the linings and a more hardened (closer-pored surface) would give poorer brake performance. Steel drums gave way to the centrifugally cast drum surfaces and that was considered a very major advance in brake technology. Any thoughts on that?

Posted on: 2014/9/18 10:47
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#9
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D-train
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I've never had a physics or engineering class... What does the hardening do to the "brittleness" of a object? But I thought that the harder you make an object, the less flexible it becomes?

I assume that spring retainers and seats wouldn't matter, and rotors not so much. ...but wouldn't a brake drum expand a little?

Sorry for the question. ...just looking to learn something.

Mark

Posted on: 2014/10/7 15:43
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Re: Hardening V8 retainers: Any metalurgists out there?
#10
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Tim Cole
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I worked for a place that did case hardening.

They had a oven that heated the stuff to a specified temperature (cherry red I think), then they sprinkled a case hardening compound on it and quenched it.

You can buy the materials and do it yourself using rented torches, or any good machine shop can do it for you. I'll bet EGGE machine can do it.

Hope this helps.

Posted on: 2014/10/7 19:20
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