Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

Hello from Russia!

I've wrote a big beefy message, but lost it after clicking a quick google search button. So, I'll pass out to the question.

Does anybody know the correct bore spacing of Packard V8?

As you might know in 1956 Packard factory closed its doors and some technologies and models were sold in the USSR, as the soviet leaders loved Packard. Shortly after several V8s appeared on various models, including GAZ-13 "Chaika" even visiually familiar with Packard Clipper.




Chaika had 5.5 litre V8s (but aluminium block with pushed in cast iron liners, aluminium heads & intake)

GAZ truck V8s are have smaller displacement but are alike the Chaika's V8s.
The most Packard-familiar V8 seems to be from ZIL-130 truck one.


So a roughly measured bore spacing on GAZ 4.25 litre truck engine is 124 mm. Which is close to 4.9 inch = 124.46 mm. Of course engines produced here are metric, but we'll measure more accurately the bore spacing, while actual Packard V8 figures will be nice to know. Plus they may put a new point in the Packard Vs. Chevy BB question discussed here:
packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1569

Thank you!
Sincerely,
Alex.

Alex, it is interesting to see on your exploded diagram that the Chaika engine was a "wet liner" engine rather than a solid cast iron block. That technology did not recieve widespread use in the US until the early 1980s with the introduction of the Cadillac HT-4100 engine. That first design was frought with problems, the Ginger root horse pills saved the day with the Cadillac engine.

The bore spacing on a Packard V8 is 5", or 127mm.

Diskovod. Based on the exploded view of the engine u posted above there is NO similarity with Packard V8 engine.
The Packard V8 engine has no cylinder sleeves. The head gaskets are different. Many other differences.

ONly possibility is that crank, rods, pistons and cam might be the same.

Quote:
G'day Alex, to PackardInfo. Pity you lost your post, happens to me too from time to time because of a session timing out and I haven't saved it along the way, very frustrating.

The matter of Packard technology being transported to the USSR is a good story but unfortunately that's just what it appears to be, a good story. There's plenty of discussion on-site here about this phenomenom. But there has never been any evidence of Packard technology transfer to the USSR. You might peruse this Forumpackardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=13 and make contact with Gerd(Guscha)who has provided a wealth of information on ZIS, ZIL's and Tchaika's.

Thanks all for your replies.

Now it is fairly clear that Chaika/GAZ truck V8s were not copied directly from any particular engine.

So it is 127 mm. Thank you, Turbopackman.
This a true old school wet liner design does suffer from several problems one of which is lack of rigid fixation of liners at the top. The should have made a plate with holes for liners so they could be stiff. But that can be fixed. There are many good points about this engines and that's why I want to mess with it some more.

Finally, there is ZIL-130 truck engine that I mentioned above. It is available in 6 and 7 litre versions, it has appeared also in 1961 as did the Chaika/GAZ truck V8 and is still in production.

It is cast iron except heads, pistons, bolts and bearings, haha! It weighs just 490 kgs which is 1080 lb!

So that may be the last home of Packard V8 technologies and I guess only bore spacing will tell it out.

2 PackardV8:
Yes, the first engine has a completely different block design, but the heads look common. Not like Chevy or some other. I'll do some comparisons later.

2 Ozstatman:
Hello-hello! :)
Yes, it is really frustrating, also because it took like 40 mins to write up the post with correct pics.
"But there has never been any evidence of Packard technology transfer to the USSR."
Except Chaika's look. And ZIL factory did actually buy some American made luxury cars for technology inspections.

I've got something to look, that was featured in my dead post.
Here is ZIL-111. The actual car that was used on the 12 of April 1961 in the parade dedicated to Gagarin first manned flight in space.


rear lights can't lie! other ZIL-111 had other rear lights!


but what surprises me, the engine looks like early OHV design


Well if this car isn't common with any Packard from the inside, then it was developed here. But I think that Clipper/Patrician owners might see something common.

Plus

See the under bumper plate to take more air to the radiator? It is just like Packards have! I have seen a pic, but they are hard to find.

Thank you for the link to other forum. Actually, I haven't looked in any other section yet. A nice community here!

Quote:
Alex,

From what I understand it's a common practice for manufacturers to buy their competitors products for many reasons. And no doubt the similarities between Packards and various Russian built cars is more than co-incidence. Doubt that Packard or anybody else would have won a patent rights/copyright or any sort of court case in the USSR during the cold-war years.

And yes, it is a great Site with a good bunch of people on board.

Yes, I believe some of the USSR built cars are "kissin' cousins" with the Packards. Yet the story of tooling and dies being sold to USSR in the '50s and earlier has pretty well been entirely debunked, even having been revised out of the newer edition of Kimes' book. But, something occurred to me. Were the Soviet "knock-offs" of the 55-56 Packards designed in the tradition of Packard? That is, they appear to carry on the V8 feature of the late Packards, but how did they perform? How much did they weight? How reliable were they compared with other Soviet cars of the time (Lada excepted )It would be terrific to have a side-by-side comparison with photos and specs.

If I am interpreting the drawing correctly the number 6 indicates the intake ports.

In that case this head has a rather unusual layout with the valves arranged IE IE IE IE.

The more usual arrangement is EI IE EI IE with the intakes paired up and the middle exhaust ports also paired up.

In the fifties all GM V8s had this layout as did Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Studebaker and AMC.

The only company with the IE IE IE IE arrangement was Chrysler in their hemi head and polysphere head engines.And they never used the conventional wedge head.

Later Ford used the same layout in their small block V8 (289 etc) but that one did not come out until 1962.

So it appears the Russians did not copy any Detroit V8 as this valve arrangement, combined with the wedge type combustion chamber with valves all in a row, did not appear on any Detroit V8 before 1962.

Quote:

Not exactly true. The Pontiac Ram Air V had this arrangement too, and probably the Ford Tunnelport from which the Pontiac RAV was almost a direct copy.

There are issues with valve arrangement vs head bolt arrangement. On Pontiacs, there were 4 common bolt holes per cylinder, but on Packard there were 5. Therefore the EIIEEIIE arrangement forced Packard (and others like Pontiac) to siameze the center exhaust ports. Pontiac's 4 bolt per cylinder allowed them to go to the EIEIIEIE arrangement (Ram Air V) without difficulty, but that would not have worked easily for Packard.

None of this applies to the Russian version of course, it is just interesting from an engineering point of view, IMO.

Craig