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I am thinking about buying a 1939 Packard Super Eight. It is a model 1705 on a 148" wheelbase. The type is a 1270 Touring Limousine. I went to see the car and it is in an all weather town car configuration. The Vehicle Number is 1270 2006. The Anti theft # is 478236. The reason I am hesitating is that according to the Packard Club literature >Packard discontinued the special bodies in the super eight for 1939 and the only pictures I can find of a 1270 limo have the driver section enclosed. Does anyone know, did Packard make an AW configured option. I read that there was a California body shop (Darrin) and a New York Body Shop (Mazzaro) that modified Packards by special order. The back end is stock Packard limo with the second window.
The drivers area is done in black leather The front doors are different than a normal enclosed limo. The front post is not curved, but rather makes a sharp angle in the area of the vent window. There is a compartment above the divider window and there is a stainless angle piece that runs from the top of the windshield to the center post on both sides. I believe this is an up stop for the window. I am attaching three pictures. So my question is could Packard have made this body or did someone modify an existing body, and if so, any idea who? And if it is a modification, does it detract from the cars value? The car has been in a barn for many years. It is solid but needs a lot of cosmetic work. I would say it is between a 3 and a 4 on the old car value guide scale. I have no experience with the 1939's. Having had only a 1932 Model 901 sedan.
What a wonderful car that was. I look forward to comments.
Bill Wurts wurtsw@att.net (860)563 2578

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Bill, I don't know anything about your particular car and would look for a good, informed response from West Peterson, it's more up his alley.

That said, I guess you know that custom coachwork isn't unknown in 39, even on the 120 chassis so anything is possible. No coachbuilders plate on the exterior, on the sill plates, or perhaps under the carpet?

Since it's not a factory offering, it would be very interesting to see the VN as it might tell you if the car was factory shipped as a chassis only, or what the body style was before conversion. Your thief-proof # is right in line with 1939 production.

I do find it an interesting vehicle and ask you to keep us informed as you unravel the history of it.

Oops, I missed that you did give us the VN. Nothing to be learned from it except what the base car was that the conversion was made on. I'd include Brunn, Derham and Rollston/Rollson among the candidate coachbuilders though any of the three would have put their ID on it. All 3 of them were doing that kind of work at that time. Is the bodywork and interior finishing done to a very high professional standard?

Quote:G'day Bill,
to PackardInfo. Sorry can't comment on the '39 Limo but if you do buy it could you please include it in the Packard Owner's Registry here, together with a pic, any known history and how you acquired it? For that matter the inclusion of your '32 Sedan would also be appreciated even if you no longer own it and could be covered to that effect in the narrative of it's history with yourself.

Good Morning Guscha & Owen

I was going to comment that I thought Rollson only made town cars with cabriolet type back ends as can be seen in the adverts. However, When I opened the link in Goscha's message, there is a Rollson with a standard back end. I would love for it to be a Rollson.

There are no sill plates under the rear doors. Possibly they are missing. But I looked for body ID Tags and did not find anything. But I did not look under the carpets.

The Vheicle ID Number 1270 2006 is on the Patent plate, Is there a source that can identify where this car was first sent and what its configuration was. I contacted Tony Day, the Packard Club Roster for '39 Super Eights and he did not have this information, I then sent an e-mail to the Parkard Museum in Warren Ohio and they refered me back to Tony Day.
So that was no help just circular. Do you think other Packard museums help?

When I looked at the car the Compartment above the divider window had a center cut glass knob to remove the panel. I had assumend that it was added later as it looked like a drawer pull. When I looked at Guscha link there appears to be a similar round knob but the detail is not good. Anyone recognize the knob in the attached picture to the original question?

Bill

Bill, Rollston/Rollson did tend to specialize in the formal closed body styles but did others as well, open touring cars and roadsters for example. If you have it, you should look at page 172 of Hugo Pfau's The Coachbuilt Packard, it has some Packards not entirely dissimilar to yours, though not the same. Or, go to www.coachbuilt.com and check out some of the later Rollston/Rollson styles.

But with certainty a Rollston/Rollson would have had their identifying badge or name somewhere. If indeed it is a Rollston, the company is still in business under another name over in Long Island I believe, and Rudy Creteur Jr, son or grandson of the owner during the Classic era, still sometimes provides access to their archives of production data.

How about some more detailed photos?

Hi Bill Wurts

Gadzooks! Interest Car! Whatever you do, don't let it get away! It's not everyday you have the opportunity to buy such a nicely preserved original custom bodied Packard. Yes, custom coachwork makes the value of this car much greater, whether Packard authorized or not, since it appears professionally done.

While I defer to those far more expert, I'd opine that custom work is by Derham or Brunn. They were engaged in doing semi-custom conversion work by the late '30's. Of the town cars I've seen, mostly in pictures, they retained the factory windshield stampings when opening the front section to create a town car. Again, there was no hard and fast rule to the way these companies work, just a general method of detail work for each.
Reference photos of the '41 Buick Limited Brunn town car for very similar work. For Derham's work, check out any Chrysler town car conversions in that period.

Rollston/Rollson, on the other hand, always seemed to replace the windshield structure with a flat unit with nice thin cast framing. Never say "always" I will be reminded.

If you find no cowl tags, still take a close looks, the mounting holes might still be evident. If you're lucky, even if the tags are missing, an outline of the tags may still be legible.

The CCCA Museum archive has the Derham files. It would be a long shot, but check with them too, on the odd chance they might have documentation on this car.

In the meantime, I will check the print resources I have including Hugo Pfau's Cars & Parts articles to see if this car appears in any.

West, What think you about this gem?

Please, more detailed pictures of the windshield, door and division areas will be helpful in identifying the custom coachbuilder.

Steve

Steve & Owen,
Per your request I am attaching some more pictures of what I think may be unique things. Sorry the picture quality is not good.
There are a couple of details of the front door, the body post, and the piece that is supposed to be installed at the top above the door for the window up stop. The glass is missing in both front doors and the owner has plexiglass duct taped in place to keep animals out.
Picture 43 is of two protrusions that are on the divider
just above the divider window. There are an additional pair of protrusions on the front passengers side of the door post.
The photo is taken looking aft. They are about 3/4" in dia and stick out about 1 1/2" What appears to be a rear view mirror on the other side of the glass is actually a reflection of it in the window. I have no idea what these parts do.

There is a detail picture (60)of the running board material which has a rectangular embossed pattern. There are several 3/8" wide ribbed stainless pieces that run the length of the running board. Was this pattern supplied by Packard?

Hope these help

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If memory serves, that running board pattern is stock.

Bill Wurts wrote:"There is a detail picture (60)of the running board material which has a rectangular embossed pattern. There are several 3/8" wide ribbed stainless pieces that run the length of the running board. Was this pattern supplied by Packard?"

O-D Wrote: "If memory serves, that running board pattern is stock."

Correct, yes this is the Super 8 running board matt and strips for all 39 Super 8's and 40 Super 8 160 / 180 models. (the matt's and strips are very expensive, I hope all the strips are there.)

This is a very interesting car. It sure looks longer than 148" but photos can be deceiving. I really can't say who did the conversion, or if it was someone's handy work some time latter in it's life, but it sure looks interesting. There seem to be very few altered 39 Super 8's compared to other years. The 39 Super is a recognized full classic either way. While the 40 super 8's seem to be much more desirable, I must admit, once sorted out, my 39 has delivered excellent service. This car may deserve serious consideration once you have determined provenance.

Best of luck,
Jim

Hi Bill Wurts

Thanks for the detail pictures, they're helpful. I suspect the conversion was done by a professional body shop, a well-know coachbuilder is in doubt for me. There were shops in the NYC area that custom modified bodies to customer order.

Best approach would be to study the details of the way it was modified from the factory stamping, how well finished the cut edge were handled. Anything that smacks of hasty or haphazard work would suggest the work was done by other than a coachbuilder such as Derham, Brunn or Rollston/Rollson. Without exception, even when modifying factory bodies, they did a first class job of craftsmanship.

Those two knob mounted on the partition header may be retainers for the canopy support piece above the window.

Whether true coachbuilt or a nicely done job by a body shop in the period, it still is one desirable Super 8. Again, my opinion of source of this work is just that, my opinion. I defer to those more experienced and expert.

Steve