Packard Forum Index » V-8 (1955-56)

This is great ! All opinions can be correct!

I just want to point out that the charging system has 2 functions- 1- maintain storage 2- operate loads within its capacity.

The problem I and alot of other antique auto owners have is-the early charginging systems were designed for 100 amp or lower batteries .It doesn't take long to recharge a low amp battery (6or12 volt)But this battery is usually not used for what ever reason.So when we use a higher amp hr battery and end up with a hicup of some sorts(flooded engine,closed points ,etc..)We tax the O.E.M system,often to it's breaking point .
In a perfect world-the batttery would maintain a perfect s.o.c .The engine would start on the first try every time,and the plates in the battery would never sulfate....So as we increase the CCA in the battery we use,the time to recharge is also needed.The alternator can do this at a much lower engine speed,of course the gen will do the same but will usally require more time at a higher engine speed.The internal regulated alternators reliability is unmatched.And if you choose one of the alternators that are built into the old style generators,you have the best of both worlds.The alt I installed on my car has a ouput of 17 amps at 700 r.p.m.with the factory Delco pulley.
Just a little fuel for thoughts.

Not to belabor the point, but I'm not convinced that just because a battery has a higher amp-hour capacity, it requires more charging. I always thought the amoung of charging required was based on the amount of current drawn, not the size of reservoir it came from.

And yes, new generators are hard to find, but so are new engine blocks, and a lot else. But unless subject to negligence or some other unusual occurance, a set of $10 brushes every 50,000 miles and a few drops of oil annually should keep a generator going almost indefinately. And of course if needed field coils can be rewound and armatures repaired, though those eventualities should be extremely rare.

And of course the major advantage is that you keep the vehicle's historic originality.

Unless you just drug a car out of a piece of bottomland, why would you need a NEW 6V generator? There are very few cases where an generator is so badly damaged where it cannot be affordably rebuilt - provided parts are available.

Yet, I just checked rockauto.com and found STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS brush set EX-57 available for a whopping $3.32 - fits a lot of Autolite 6V generators. They also have RX-51 for only $2.80, which fits Delco-Remy 6V as used on Packards 1950-53. Any local parts store that's worth doing business with ought to be able to get 'em, too.

Now, try to get ANY internal parts for an alternator in any GM vehicle built in the last 10 years. You better know who made it and what the amperage output is as the choices are more than you might think. I'll be surprised if you can get anything other than a complete unit. GM wants at least a couple hundred for a reman - parts stores are slightly less.

Newer doesn't necessarily mean better, but - again - if ya gotta upgrade, the Delco SI is a good choice if only because of servicablity. However, don't forget that the original equipment on these old car was built to be renewed and parts are out there in most cases.

I was taught that the battery is there only to start the vehicle (though it also provides power for emergency situations), but the generator is there to operate the vehicle's electrcial systems once the vehicle is running. Then, any surplus ouput from the generator is used to replenish the battery, which shouldn't take much in a vehicle in proper operating condition. I think the whole CCA thing is highly over-rated EXCEPT for gagdet-laden late-model vehicles.

After I acquired my first '56 Patrician, back in 1987, I installed Group 60 Allstate battery, and did nothing to the generator. A couple of years later, I drove that car to a cruise-in about 20 minutes away one summer evening. Though it was still light out, I liked to run with the headlights on, but I must have forgotten to turn them off when I parked and went in to eat. When I came back, some guy in the parking lot sneered and said, "hey buddy, looks like ya left yer lights on - tough luck". He was probably waiting for me to ask for a jump-start, but I sneered right back at him and said "don't worry - it'll start" - and it did. Also, I used to leave the Pat parked in the driveway at home during summer months. On more than on occassion, I had to use the Packard to jump start one of my late-model daily drivers.

Alas, that Allstate battery bit the dust after 10 years and was NLA from Sears, but I never got more more than 2-3 years out of any other brand of Group 60. Mebbee the problem isn't so much generators, voltage, or ground as it is the quality of today's batteries.

Certainly there is nothing wrong with a GOOD 6v system. Even a fair 6v system is acceptable. I would not attempt to change either. In fact i have 3 six volt sytems currently in service.

However, tell me how to remove mud dobber nests from the CLOTH WRAPPED field coils (NOS BTW) without damaging them. What do i do about the laminated armature core that is showing signs of the individual layers shifting and most likely cutting into the windings???? What about commutators that are severly pitted and burned from use and abuse??? These same issues apply to just about any electrical part that is 50 years old and of unkown origin regardless of treatment, voltage etc.

Sure, i try to keep my original 6v equiped vehicles maintained and i've been lucky. The problem is that i'm running out of 6v parts. Brushes and bushing are not an issue. FIELD COILS and ARMATures ARE. Especialy on anything new i bring in.

Its not like i'm going to Pebblebrook or Meadowbeach to bid on high points cars for my collection that only need a set brushes and the air checked in the spare. The last Delco alternator i bought was about 6 years ago and it cost $34, with LLW. Anyone have armatures or field coils for $34 ????? How about regulators for $34 ????

So, if u have good parts setting on the shelf by all means rebuild the 6v systems. In my case i'm running out of 6v parts.

Switching to an alternator wouldn't be something I'd be interested in... but there's one on e-bay right now; 6 volt/positive ground 5/8" pulley with a starting bid of 24.99 USD. Item 150216913509
Just in case anybody else might be looking for one.
Oops.. just realized this is on the V8 forum ... never mind.

I'll put my two cents worth in, too.
I have a couple of 55 400s. As someone indicated, there are some spouses who won't ride in a non-air conditioned car. To put in a Vintage unit, the system must be negative ground. I had a generator repair shop install an alternator and change to negative ground. Still haven't changed the amp meter to negative ground so it shows discharge when the alternator is charging.
In talking with an auto A/C shop owner, he pointed out that the one wire alternators pump all the juice into the battery. If you are driving with lights and air conditioning on, a lot of current is being driven through the battery. With two wire units, the alternator feeds the accesseries directly and anything left ovr charges the battery as needed. Logically, this would lead to lower temperatures in the battery and longer battery life.
Was the A/C shop owner correct or blowing smoke rings?
A couple of years ago I found a distributor in Pittsburgh that carried 6 volt alternators. Don't recall if they were positive or negative ground. Also found a shop that converts negative ground alternatives to positive ground. Email me if you want names and phone numbers. Bernardi11@comcast.net

Bernardi

Bernardi write:
"Was the A/C shop owner correct or blowing smoke rings?"

He is correct. Thanks for bringing that up.

The one wire Delco is suited for low demand applications such as Ag equipment, hot rods, racing vehicles, motorcycles and so forth running only a few different electrical items.
When many different electrical accessories are involved, especialy those that are intermittent use such as AC clutches, electric windows and so-forth then the one wire system causes surges and drops during the on/off cycles.

I guess I haven't seen that many failures of armatures or field coils in generators. Of course, I have V8 Packards with 12V generators. Admittedly, one of the Pats has had th gen replaced, but the rest are originals (AFAIK).

Brushes and bearings are what I've seen replaced most often in generators. In fact, we had a brand-new Bolens garden tractor with a Delco generator that did double-duty as a starter. We got 25 years out of that tractor and only ever had to put a set of brushes in it - just threw in a set of bearings while we were at it.

Yet, if I had a vehicle 6V generator with failed field coils or armatures, I'm the kinda guy who would wanna take it apart and look into doing a rewind myself.

Yet, I over looked your opening question...

So, how do you clean up a mud dauber's nest? Very carefully - LOL!

Seriously, after killing any larvae, have you tried breaking the bulk of the nest loose? Then, go at it with a dry toothbrush, then maybe a little water and a brush. If oyu ruin the cloth covering on the field coils, surely that material is available somewhere as there are places that do rewinding for all sorts of motors and generators that aren't easily or affordably replaced - as well as those making new ones.

BH wrote: "surely that material is available somewhere as there are places that do rewinding for all sorts of motors and generators that aren't easily or affordably replaced - as well as those making new ones."

ok. I got to thinking that maybe i'm a little behind the times. It has been my experience over the last 10 to 12 years that replacement 6v parts are becomming very scarce even on eBay. Has anyone started reproducing things like 6v armatures, coils, regulators etc??? AND at prices that can compete with cost of a 12v conversion????

I doubt that rewinding is something that can be done without expensive special equipment but i really do not know.

I have several 6v generators, starters etc around here but the major internal parts are most questionable.