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Mr. Cooper, The information re the Adonis hood ornament is available in Appendix VI page 762 of the General Edition Third Printing of Packard, A History of the Motor Car and the Company edited by Beverly Rae Kimes. The information provided by John seems to have been taken verbatum from this book. Anytime someone takes information directly from a published source a citation giving credit to the author of that source of information should be included so as to avoid any confusion as to whether the information is through original unpublished research, anecdotal reminiscences or simply copied from someone elses efforts.
Researching and writing history is a very demanding task and I appreciate the efforts of yourself and anyone else who takes on the challenge of doing so since we all benefit in broadening our knowledge.

I agree with your wish that people would cite sources of data, and give credits for photos, etc. I've expressed this hope several times, but without much success. John considers himself an amateur historian and certainly has lots of access to data, but like all of us often fails to provide a citation for the information. Please John (and others), as you read this, make a mental note to yourself, providing source information will make you opinions and views all the more valid.

Quill,

Welcome to the forum. I enjoyed your article. I especially enjoy your thoughtful & tactful response to criticism to your submitted piece.

I look forward to future articles. Intellectual debate is good as long as all those involved are respectful.

Quote:
G'day Quill,
to PackardInfo. Quite a spread of Packards there and I invite you to share them with us in the Owner Registry. Include a pic, any known history and how you acquired them please.

Mr: Copper: Welcome to the forum. Now for the sources concerning the Packard Grille and and Charles Schmidt.

1. The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars 1885 to present
edited by G.N. Georgano. This book was designed and produced by George Rainbird, Marble Arch House 44 Edgware Road, London England for E.P. Dutton & Company Inc 201 Park
Avenue South, New York , N.Y. 10003. There were three printings of this book 1968, 1969, and 1970. In the above named book I refer you to page 401.

2. Packard by George H. Dammann & James A. Wren. Published by Motorbooks International Publishers & Wholesalers, 729 Prospect Avenue, P.O. 1, Osceola, WI. I refer you to page 19 of the above book.

Concerning the Packard and the RR grille of the time do you know the following. The Model L which Schmidt help design was introduced in October 1903. Royce didn't introduce the first Rolls Royce which was a 10 horsepower model until April 1, 1904.

Concerning the Packard Pelican hood ornament I will have a responce to you and Owen and Clipper 47 later this weekend.

John F. Shireman

Owen & Clipper 47: Concerning references sources.

If you would like I have several books in my library pertaining to automotive history that the writers of books never list any reference as to sources they obtained their information from. If both of you would like I think I can list about 10 major books in my automotive library that have no references sources printed in them at all.


I once had a letter in an CCCA publication when Kimes asked about information concerning the English built auto the Invicta. When I mailed my findings to Kimes and knowing that they would be published I included in the letter the sources and reference material that I used.

Regarding me listing reference materials that I use when posting in here isn't going to happen on a regular basis. However when asked to furnish reference sources that I have used when asked I will gladly do so. Such as the case with Mr. Cooper asked me to do so today.

The bottom line if I am writing to have a piece published for money or for free, I know dang well that I had better list my reference sources. In here it isn't going to happen unless someone makes a request of me to do so.

John F. Shireman

Hello,

The four cars I mentioned were all, at various times, parts of my father's collection. I drove all of the first three, though, and the one that remained at dad's passing, was the Twin Six. It was up for sale largely unrestored at the time. It finally did sell, and I recall shedding a quiet tear at its passing. There were three other cars left over at that time, but the only one I had developed an emotional attachment to was the Packard. That v-12 monster was quite an achievement for 1918.

But since they are all no longer in my possession, a registry entry might be a bit late in coming at this point. Besides, I would have to dig pretty deep to find the serial numbers, etc.

Photos of the four Packards are going to be difficult to locate easily, but a Website still exists from when the final four cars were offered for sale. The Twin Six is forlornly visible there, at:http://users.omniglobal.net/aufheben/Cars.htm

As time permits, I will return with further details on the four Packards, including to whom they were sold, and when, if I can confirm that. Time is a bit scarce right now. Glad to be welcomed here so enthusiastically, and I will be back soon.

Dan

Portlandon,

Thanks for the compliments, Don. I look forward to having the opportunity to share and learn more information here. There are some additional automotive articles of mine at a Suite101 Website, that I attempted to include links for in the article. But they did not form the anticipated hot links they were supposed to generate. I think it may have something to do with the scanning of the document, and the possibility that html coding may be different than that necessary for a PDF document. Anyway, there are a number of automotive articles at:http://users.omniglobal.net/aufheben/Cars.htm

Perhaps most interesting to participants on this board, will be the articles on mascots (2), older books and references (2), and maybe the one on automobile body design. Feel free to take a look.

And thanks again to Clipper 47 and to John for the updates on citation references.


Dan

Mr. Cooper: Concerning the Packard PELICAN. For a history of the concerning the use and the years Packard used the PELIGAN, I refer you to Packard a History of the Motor Car and The Company by Beverly Kimes. I refer you to pages 764 through 767. The PELICAN was used from 1932 through 1958 in various forms of its design over the years.

You stated that in your article that PELICAN was only used through 1951. So it seems that one of two parties are wrong.

I quote from your article . ( And in few versions of the company's own publications the Cormorant was at some times referred to as the PELICAN). I would like to point out that Packard made reference to the PELIGAN in more than a few company documents. In the 1952 Packard's owners guide the hood ornament in question is referred to as a PELICAN. Packard sold about than 63,000 cars in 1952.

Please note that below is a factory picture of a 1953 Packard. Please take a close at the hood and you will see a Pelican

John F. Shireman

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Well, obviously I got the link wrong in my last post, copying the one from the previous post instead. Following, is the correct link, although from the ensuing context in this forum, it was apparently quite easy to get to the articles. After all, it seems even Johg got there without much hassle.

http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/vintage_classic_cars

I apologize for messing up on the link citation. But maybe my subconscious mind was influencing me in some way. After all, the mistake was certainly proof of my incompetence. Unfortunately, a golden opportunity was given there to Joht to offer yet another splendid criticism of my efforts, and he failed to pounce on it in the tiger-like fashion he has employed thus far in criticizing my work. So perhaps, I must now apologize to Johy yet again, for not making this opportunity more to his liking. In retributional payment, I may have to locate one of his own many publishing credits, and offer my own courteous personal criticism of it on the bases of scope, intent, context, format, target audience identification, grammatical syntax, structural integrity, mood/attitude, and possible psychological motivating factors... Ehhh, then again, maybe not.

I wish most of you well in your continuing pursuits. It has certainly been interesting, but I am embroiled in what amounts to the project of my lifetime, and I don't have a lot of extra time for detail dissection of what were to some degree entertainment-oriented articles I wrote several years ago. Best wishes, and farewell.

Dan