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Guscha: I have very little information on the Packard aircraft diesel engine venture.

I disagree with your statement about Clessie Cummins. I have an article about Cummins that I will share with you when I find it tomorrow. Cummins also put one of his engines in a 1935 Auburn Phaeton.

John F. Shireman

For us lazier folks, here's some internet-style history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_diesel_engine

The Kimes book has a section on the Packard aviation diesel as well, with pics.

To show that Packard was going in a direction that has maintained an interest, largely, I believe, to the economy and durability/reliability of diesel aviation engines, here are some current versions:
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/

Also, a friend who is a very experienced and capable pilot was looking seriously at trying for a distance record with a diesel-powered aircraft. This was about 10 years or so ago. Believe it or not, John Deere was in on the development at the time, of course largely for publicity purposes. One of the strategies for flying a record distance was to fly very low over ocean stretches, taking advantage of the multiplication of lift when the wings are near the surface, hence needing very little power, and fuel, to stay aloft.

Once again, though, Packard can be credited with the early concept, and more to the point, execution of a practical diesel aircraft engine.

Guscha,

I really enjoyed reading your post (as always) and have long wondered about the Cummins connection. Allow me to explain... I have an antique Mack semi tractor with a Cummins diesel. A while back when doing work to my 320 Packard engine I realized there were many similarities. The side mounted roller rockers, the oil distribution and delivery system and the general design made me wonder what the deal was. I called a friend that is much more versed in the history of Cummins than I (he worked for Cummins many years ago) and asked if he new of any connection. Without any hesitation, he said it seemed Cummins had interest in the Packard engine design and knew of the diesel development around that time. My friend considers the connection and similarities in fundamental engine design to be more than coincidence. While I have no real idea either way, I would be most interested to hear what others may think.

Jim

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I believe those non-magnetic Packard marine diesels were in service with the Navy thru the 1st Gulf War. They were also offered in V8 and V16 configurations and only a year or so ago service parts for them were appearing on eBay.

EDIT - though apparently not as well-known to Packard fans as the WW II PT boat and postwar commercial marine engines, details of these various engines are discussed in some detail starting on page 209 of Robert Neal's Master Motor Builders.

The Packard Diesel/ Verville crashed near Attica, NY in snow storm in April 1930. My father's (he was seven and later an Eighth AF B17 pilot) family drove out to see the crash site the next morning. The Attica Historical Society has a number of photographs and articles regarding the crash. Air intake icing was the final determined cause of the crash as I remember. Engine also had the ability to shut fuel off to various cylinders on demand sort of like the later GM/ Cadillac 8-6-4 option.

Here is a link to Smithsonian Air and Flight on the Packard Aero-Diesel

http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/AnnalsofFlight/text/SAOF-0001.2.txt

I'm bound a determined to find one of these Packard diesel engines. I knew the 320 was similar and thought of finding one to convert if I never found one of the others. I have a vintage altered dragster tube frame that will support just about any engine you could put in it. Thanks for filling me in a little more guscha. You always have interesting material.

Thanks Guscha. Cool image, of a PackardRolls Royce-powered airplane on the radiator cap. It is a representation of the 1931 S.6B Supermarine Schneider Cup winning float plane powered by a supercharged Rolls Royce R engine (predecessor to the Merlin). I believe this airplane had "wet" wings, not for fuel but for engine coolant. It was a practice in those days to fashion radiator cap ornaments after event winning aircraft. I have seen one with a model of the Spirit of St. Louis. Also, a popular Packard radiator cap ornament, and often seen in photos on this site, is a depiction of a Packard-powered biplane in the sight glass. I'll let the experts comment further.

(o {I} o)

Guscha, a nice little sculpture for the front of the car. Thank you for sharing. I'll need to do some more research, but I believe the wings were "wet" and acted as radiators. This feature contributed to the streamlining and the ability of the aircraft to achieve faster speeds in spite of the large floats.

(o {I} o)

Let me clarify the engines we have observed the similarity in. The Cummins inline 6 commonly known as the "N" "NT" and "NTC" ranging in horsepower from the early 170 hp engines to the 400 hp engines in the last of that series engine seemed to have much in common with the early Packard multi-piece 6 cylinder. The similarities are the roller rocker mechanisms contained in the side boxes in the crankcase, the oiling system, full oil filtration (found on the latter 8 cyls.) heat exchanger, and crankcase driven accessories such as the generator.

We know that Mr. Cummins did much early testing of his on-road diesel engines in these Packard's, We really surmise that many of these engine attributes found in Cummins engines produced after the Packard engine was established and in use prior to the Cummins engine to be present in the Cummins design.

As far as similarities in the Packard diesel, and Cummins diesel, I don't think there would be much. I think Cummins designs were well established by the time Packard really delved into diesel design. Cummins got a heck of a head start on useable diesel engine design for road use with the design of the Pressure Time (PT) Pump. That was a Cummins exclusive.

I am afraid I am not personally knowledgeable enough on the finite details of the early years, designs, and timelines to do much more than speculate. It is ironic how much in common the Cummins in my antique Mack pictured in this thread has in common with the 320 in my 39 Super 8.

Thanks Gerd for your interest in this interesting connection in early Packard and Cummins engine design.

39super8 i was actually going to ask for the specifics that you pointed out. This is a really interesting thread for me as both a loyal Packard guy and Cummins guy.