Packard Forum Index » Post-War (1946-54)

Hi all,

I've decided that this is the weekend I'm going to try and find the cause of the valve clatter coming from my '51 200 Deluxe.
First a little background. I bought this car in the Autumn of 2010 because it ran and drove and the '55 Patrician I was dealing on (thanks to this group) didn't. The only problem, it didn't run too well. I turned it over to a mechanic friend and told him to bring all maintenence up to date and, as I was told it needed valve work, look into that as well. I turned out the engine desperately needed a valve job and one valve (burned) and valve guide replaced. That and a tune-up and carb rebuild made her run strong and reliably - just not without valve noise.
After reading several related postings I think that at least part, if not all of the noise is caused by my mechanic not adjusting the hydraulic lifters when they buttoned it back up. I mean, who knew hydraulic lifters could be adjusted? Or needed to be? Having cut my mechanical teeth on OHV V8s, I sure didn't and my mechanic and his crew are younger than I am. By the way, I know the '51 288s came with mechanical lifters but the engine in this car was replaced with what I gather was a Service Engine as there are no engine numbers in any of the ususal places even after bathing the thing in Muric Acid. I wouldn't swear that it isn't a 5 main 327.

So today I put the right front on a jack stand, removed the right front wheel, access panel and valve covers and started up the engine to see what's what. Actually, I don't know what I thought I'd find but almost everything looked like it seemed to suposed to be. Except for the little "bleed holes" in each of the engine valve lifter castings. About three of them were spurting out oil on a regular basis; about eight were just seeping oil and the rest were bone dry or nearly so. I'm guessing they should all be doing more or less the same thing?

I've checked the galley oil pressure and it's right on. Which means I've reached the end of what I know what to do. So Any and all advise, help, thoughts or anything else is both needed and asked for.

One other odd thing. The exhaust manifold has a very small opening with a tube sticking out of it about an 1/2 inch. Why is that there and what is it for? I stuck an ice pick in the tube and it goes all the way in to the exhaust manifold?????

By the way: My thanks to Gator for the tip about turning valve lifters in Mark from Coos Bay's thread. So far all the lifters that aren't loaded are turnable.

Jim, can help in regard to the hole in the top of the 288 manifold: that is a heat tube for auto choke operation, and a 1/8" steel or copper tube should go through that (- not sure how far through, mine just enters the top for less than 1/2"). It terminates around rear side of the WDO carby, into the bakelite Climatic Control which has the auto choke function and needs to sample the hot air from manifold to operate the thermo spring inside. See "Tube Assembly - Automatic Choke" 9.109 in parts listing. Has 1/8" NPT fitting to screw into carby end.

Regarding how much oil should squirt from holes above lifters - I'm no expert as my '51 has solid lifters not hydraulics. You'd think there would be sufficient splash to lubricate the mating surfaces of the lifters in their bores. However IF a good oil top-up flow is needed to keep them primed then clatter could be due to not enough oil in them to keep them 'pumped up'. Un-pumped they would surely clatter. Manual says dirt can prevent proper operation by blocking holes in them.

Another clatter cause could be a stretched timing chain hitting the timing cover?

Thanks Larry. I'm sure you nailed it with the heat tube That's the only thing that makes sense.
Ii'm think that my lifters oil supply is in question.I was ready with shop towels to sop up the oil with the covers off. I was surprised how little oil I saw. Whole area is clean and dry.
I've used a stethoscope to listen at the tining chain cover and it's omparatively quiet so I think I'm OK there.

Dear Jim:

Valve noise can be caused by worn stems and guides and shot lifters. If the seats and valves weren't ground that much then the adjustment probably stayed fairly close, but usually at least one stem needs to be adjusted. I am always amazed how many motor builders don't know about lifter preload, because all hydraulic lifters require it. Pushrod V-8's all sound better when it's done.

Thank you Tim for your reply.
I went back over the invoice I got from my mechanic and find that the intake and exhaust valves for #8 were replaced along with the guides. The rest were ground, lapped, etc as needed. So I know at least two valves and their lifters need to be adjusted. I had no idea that hydraulic lifters could be adjusted or needed to be. The newest engine I have rebuilt is a '65 Cadillac 429 and the eldest is a 1960 Mopar 413 in my 1960 Imperial. I did know to let the lifters soak over night in oil and return lifters taken from the car to their original bore but that was it. I had always been told "the engine will pump 'em up".

Following Gator's advice he posted in another thread I've have checked all the lifters and found they are free though some didn't want to turn at first.

I'm still concerned that the amount of oil coming (or not) from the "seep holes" on the valve lifter bore casting when the engine is running isn't uniform, although I have no idea if it is supposed to be. It just strikes me that it should. Like I said earlier, three squirt oil out, about eight ooze oil and the rest are dry or somewhat dry. Can anyone clear this up for me?

The "Plan B" on this project is/was to just forget the hydraulic lifters and take the mechanical lifters out of a spare engine I have. To that end and while waiting for some ideas on the oil seep holes to come in, I decided to try and take one of the mechanical lifters out to see how that went. Short Answer - it didn't!

I removed the head (God these things are heavy) and using my trusty L-Head valve lifter, removed the keeper, spring and valve. However, when I went to remove the lifter, no such luck! When I lift the damn thing up I hear a solid metal click - as in the lifters don't come out this way. My thinking is that they have to.

Please, what am I missing here?

Though the hydraulic assemblies themselves can be removed from above once the valve is removed, the cam followers (and mechanical lifters) can only be removed from below once the camshaft is removed.

You talked about adjusting hydraulic lifters - you don't adjust the lifter itself but you must check and adjust if necessary the take-up clearance between the lifter and the valve stem whenever new valves are installed or valves and seats ground. This is covered quite well in the shop manual.

As to the lifter oil bleed holes, don't expect to see significant amounts of oil spurting from them.

Also, the lifter gallery usually gets it's oil via the small U shaped pigtail tubing connecting the two ports on drivers side of engine. If there is any obstruction in the tube or fitting, that could cause some issues.

If you have an oil filter it might be worth verifying the plumbing. Some instructions for pre 51 oil filters showed them to be field installed in series with the lifter supply because there was no dump port directly into the pan. Generally those were solid lifter engines so not a big deal. The filter inline had been found to be a problem with hydraulic lifters and plumbing was changed. Problem was filter caused insufficient pressure and flow resulting in noisy lifters. For 51 on all the oil filters were plumbed so the lifters got oil directly via the pigtail again and filter dumped into the pan. Being a junior model, filter was an accessory and if one was installed using the older instructions it might be causing an issue.

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Well, that explains a lot! I just couldn't believe that the lifter body was so soft (or the cam so hard) that the cam lobes had mushroomed the thing.

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I have skimmed that when I first decided to do something about the noise. Tonight, the good book I curl up with will be the engine section of the FSM.

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Good! This being the first time I've ever worked on an L-head; everything is open for question.

That you so much for riding to the rescue here. I reall appreciate it.

Thank you Howard for riding to the rescue as well. I was getting to the point of tearing my hair - something time dictates I should refrain from doing.Quote:

I've blown that out once before after after a thread about lifter noise a couple of years ago. I was also thinking about blowing air through the in block passages after the lifters were removed but I'm not sure if that would do more harm than good if all I accomplished was to really pack the sludge solid.

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I remember when this (to my knowledge) first came up a couple of years ago. At that time I took the pig-tail and related plumbing all apart and blew air through the pipes. I also noted a restrictor in one of the brass elbow/fittings. I'm going to have to look up the Service Letter(s) that covered that as I think there were a couple and I really need to get the "last word" Packard spoke on that.

While I was under the right fender, I noticed what appears to be a date on the second panel from the rear on the right crankcase. It reads 10-15-54. I'm wondering if that could be the casting date or the like of this engine?

Thank you again Howard for your help in this and every other mess I've gotten myself into. I still haven't installed your ignition switch kit (thank you for that as well) but that is on the schedule for tomorrow. I figure I'd better quit stalling and get with it before my jerry rigged "fix" comes apart and leaves me stranded. When I do, I'll post with pictures.