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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#31
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Mopar_Earl
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Here are pics of the early 50's GM toe board mount like the Packards. Wasn't across the fleet as you stated, some were firewall mount. This is the company I emailed. Hard to tell what the pedal ratio is or how low the pedal would be.

https://shop.abspowerbrake.com/products/copy-of-1950s-buick-pontiac-oldsmobile-floor-mount-power-brake-conversion


Earl

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Posted on: 2023/11/25 23:18
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#32
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kevinpackard
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This may not help you since you are looking at a boosted master cylinder. But my car was modified by the previous owner to have a dual master cylinder, though mine is not power assisted.

The PO removed the TreadleVac. He located the master cylinder high on the firewall, above the steering column and beside the fresh air duct.
Click to see original Image in a new window


I'm not sure what this master came out of, but I believe it is an old Ford model. There is a proportioning valve underneath it.
Click to see original Image in a new window


For the pedal he used something massive....it looks like it came out of a van or something. The linkage is above the steering column. He had a mechanical switch, which I disconnected and went back to the original pressure switch set up.
Click to see original Image in a new window


The pedal arm is very thick and wraps over the steering column to place the pedal properly.
Click to see original Image in a new window


The pedal appears closer in this photo than it really is. It's not hard to reach , though it sticks forward a little too far.
Click to see original Image in a new window


I don't love the set up, but I don't hate it. It works and I do like having a dual master. However I don't feel like it stops as well as a factory Packard manual setup. It takes more force to do a panic stop. I have no idea what the pedal ratio is. It works well enough, which is why I haven't bothered to change it.

-Kevin

Posted on: 2023/11/29 13:03
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#33
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Packard Don
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Here’s an example of a modern booster on a 1956 but it makes the pedal too high and too far from the floor to be safe so it is being converted back to stock. With it so high on the firewall, I am not sure how the pedal ratio was achieved.

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Posted on: 2023/11/29 13:37
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#34
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Mopar_Earl
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Quote:

kevinpackard wrote:
This may not help you since you are looking at a boosted master cylinder. But my car was modified by the previous owner to have a dual master cylinder, though mine is not power assisted.

The PO removed the TreadleVac. He located the master cylinder high on the firewall, above the steering column and beside the fresh air duct.
Click to see original Image in a new window


I'm not sure what this master came out of, but I believe it is an old Ford model. There is a proportioning valve underneath it.
Click to see original Image in a new window


For the pedal he used something massive....it looks like it came out of a van or something. The linkage is above the steering column. He had a mechanical switch, which I disconnected and went back to the original pressure switch set up.
Click to see original Image in a new window


The pedal arm is very thick and wraps over the steering column to place the pedal properly.
Click to see original Image in a new window


The pedal appears closer in this photo than it really is. It's not hard to reach , though it sticks forward a little too far.
Click to see original Image in a new window


I don't love the set up, but I don't hate it. It works and I do like having a dual master. However I don't feel like it stops as well as a factory Packard manual setup. It takes more force to do a panic stop. I have no idea what the pedal ratio is. It works well enough, which is why I haven't bothered to change it.

-Kevin


Pretty sweet. A hydroboost may fit in the spot if you'd want power brakes and the pedal ratio was correct. The OE ps pump isn't enough though. You'd have to upgrade the pump or run a second pump. If they did the pedal correctly, it would be in the 6 to 7 ratio for manual brakes. Too much for power brakes.

Your braking performance:
If you have drum/drum brakes yet. Manual drum/drum brakes need a master cylinder with a bore under an 1" or you will make the pedal harder as you go up in bore size. And/or the ratio is too low. 4 for power 6 for manual. Could be as easy as installing a smaller bore master cylinder.

Another needed item on a drum/drum is 10 psi residual valves. If the master is originally a drum/drum master, it should have them built in. If not. You can add them externally. No residual valves would cause more pedal travel but you can pump it up and it holds. A disc/drum master would only have the 10 psi residual valve on the rear circuit. Disc/disc would have none.


Thanks
Earl

Posted on: 2023/11/29 14:34
1953 Packard Patrician 400 Touring Sedan
*Factory AC
*3spd manual with overdrive
*Heater
*Backup lights
*Power steering
*Power brakes
*Windshield washer
*Driver's side spotlight mirror
*Spare tire remote valve
*Wonderbar radio
*Power antenna
*Rear radio speaker with dash volume control
*Original interior other than the carpet
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#35
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Mopar_Earl
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Quote:

Packard Don wrote:
Here’s an example of a modern booster on a 1956 but it makes the pedal too high and too far from the floor to be safe so it is being converted back to stock. With it so high on the firewall, I am not sure how the pedal ratio was achieved.


The pedal from floor distance could be changed by adjusting the booster rod or using a different length adjustable rod. The pedal height, you'd have to extend the pedal or use a longer pedal. Ratio is the distance from the center of the pedal pivot point to the middle of the footpad, divided by the distance from the pedal pivot to the master cylinder or booster rod connection on the pedal.

There is a thread on here of the same setup you have. He used the original pedal and lengthen it.

My 52 Dodge Coronet, you have to lift your foot off the floor to use the brake or clutch. Factory frame mounted pedals. There is no just pivoting your foot on your heel from the throttle to the brake like modern cars. That was a new thing when those treadle-vac units came out. No more lifting your foot off the floor to brake.


Earl

Posted on: 2023/11/29 14:45
1953 Packard Patrician 400 Touring Sedan
*Factory AC
*3spd manual with overdrive
*Heater
*Backup lights
*Power steering
*Power brakes
*Windshield washer
*Driver's side spotlight mirror
*Spare tire remote valve
*Wonderbar radio
*Power antenna
*Rear radio speaker with dash volume control
*Original interior other than the carpet
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#36
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kevinpackard
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Earl - I believe the master was from a drum/drum vehicle based on how old it is. Likely the residual valves are in the master, but I'm not totally positive. Bore size is unknown. I'll do some digging on it and see what I can find.

Posted on: 2023/11/29 14:55
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#37
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Mopar_Earl
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I do have a new update. Abs power brakes got back to me. They actually make the same type up conversation for Packard as the GM toe board cars.

I have the following questions in and waiting on a reply.
Pedal ratio?
Is the pedal at the same location as OE?
Does the OE pedal pad fit?
What size is the master cylinder bore?
Any internal residual valves?

I will update when I get more information. It sounds promising so far. I included the information they sent me.

Says 54 to 56 but 53 would be the same. I would think 51 to 56 would be the same.

Thanks
Earl

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Posted on: 2023/11/29 15:03
1953 Packard Patrician 400 Touring Sedan
*Factory AC
*3spd manual with overdrive
*Heater
*Backup lights
*Power steering
*Power brakes
*Windshield washer
*Driver's side spotlight mirror
*Spare tire remote valve
*Wonderbar radio
*Power antenna
*Rear radio speaker with dash volume control
*Original interior other than the carpet
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#38
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HH56
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Sounds very interesting so hope it works out. The booster looks to be a bit smaller so maybe a 6" diameter?? Just FYI, 52-55 power brake pedals look almost the same with essentially the same size and style pad but they did make some changes in the arm and bracket attachment areas. Relation to accelerator pedal is very nearly the same in all years though.

For 56 the pedal changed considerably with a completely different support. The single high bracket became a pair positioned a bit lower on either side of the vent opening and arm became slightly shorter but much wider plus moved to the left side of the steering column. The pad is also wider but the ralatonship to accelerator stayed about the same. If the new system keeps the pedal in that same area it could probably look near stock and be much less of a learning to like it curve than some of the other mods.

One feature of the Treadlevac that will surely be lost with the modern unit is the light and almost minimal pedal feel and travel. There is a 53 commercial where at about the 35 second mark it shows the car being braked to a smooth stop by rotating the tip of a foot from the accelerator over to the brake and just barely touching the pedal. That light touch feature was mentioned by Packard in a lot of their advertising..

Posted on: 2023/11/29 15:44
Howard
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#39
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Mopar_Earl
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It's an 8" dual booster.

I have no issue giving up the treadle-vac feel for a modern booster and dual circuit master. It's my top priority before I even buy new tires.



Thanks,
Earl

Posted on: 2023/11/29 18:40
1953 Packard Patrician 400 Touring Sedan
*Factory AC
*3spd manual with overdrive
*Heater
*Backup lights
*Power steering
*Power brakes
*Windshield washer
*Driver's side spotlight mirror
*Spare tire remote valve
*Wonderbar radio
*Power antenna
*Rear radio speaker with dash volume control
*Original interior other than the carpet
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Re: 1953 Patrician: has anyone updated from Treadlevac to modern 2-chamber mstr cyl?
#40
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HH56
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Quote:

Mopar_Earl wrote:
It's an 8" dual booster.

I have no issue giving up the treadle-vac feel for a modern booster and dual circuit master. It's my top priority before I even buy new tires.
Thanks,
Earl

Very interesting and sure would like to know more when you find out. You said ABS Power brake makes it but I didn't see it on their website. Is it brand new and only shown in car specific listings or has it been out for a while?

The dual 8" surprises me because if the toe board is the same size and shape as the original, it looks to be mounted close to the same height vertically but maybe moved to the right a few inches. In the stock location a 7" diameter booster will barely fit the space without hitting the frame and a dual 7 will barely make it without the end of the master hitting the steering box. To have a dual 8 fit they have moved it upward and toward the steering column a bit to clear both items. Am wondering how close that would put it to the torsion bars in a 55-6 model and how much clearance to the air vent tube. If both those items would be clear it might even work for 55-6 models with factory AC. The blower position on those cars has been a big issue when trying to make anything that has been done so far work.

Posted on: 2023/11/29 20:06
Howard
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