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Re: 359 questions
#21
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John
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I think with higher compression on the flat head type engines, it has to do with heat dissipation. Seems all went to aluminum heads when trying to raise compression on the flat head engines. On a flat head it is less about compression and more on improving the engine breathing.

Posted on: 11/1 8:11
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Re: 359 questions
#22
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54Les
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Just a tidbit...My 54 Convertible was really hard to start when hot with the Delco starter that was on the car when I bought it. Packard also used an Autolite starter for the 359. When I changed to the Autolite the problem was solved. There is a thread on this site detailing this, so take a look for it.

Good luck on your projects,

Les

Posted on: 11/1 11:16
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Re: 359 questions
#23
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PackardDon
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That’s interesting as the Delco used was apparently standard on the 359 with no Autolite option as far as I know. In any event, the Delco in my 1954 Patrician has always readily started it. I recently bought an NOS solenoid for it which I’ve net yet needed to install as the original is still going strong.

Posted on: 11/1 12:15
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Re: 359 questions
#24
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54Les
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I never ran my engine prior to a major rebuild, so it must have been really tight and the starter motor was probably tired.
On page 12 of the electrical section of the 24th Series service manual that I have, both are mentioned with the Autolite having considerably more torque than the Delco. It seemed to fit well as the mechanic didn't complain! In any case, it's worked well for me.

Posted on: 11/1 14:07
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Re: 359 questions
#25
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HH56
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Not sure of the reasoning or all the differences but 51 and 52 used an Autolite pinion shift starter on the Patrician 327 9 main engine. The pinion shift type is the same high end starter Packard used on all their senior models thru 56 and does seem to have a lot of torque. Other models used Delco straight Bendix type starters.

In 53 the senior engine was changed to a different model Autolite. Have not found specs to see if it was still pinion shift but the smaller engines again used Delcos. In 54 it looks as if Delco Bendix type starters were used on most engines -- even the 359 -- except for believe it or not, the 5400-01-33 models which had small engines but the same Autolite starter used on the 53 senior engine. Unless the parts book is in error that reasoning does not compute in my feeble brain. Except for the 5433 commercial chassis the other cars were the cheapest small engine models. Unless the R chassis designation as in 5400R and 5401R is for heavy duty somethings have not quite figured out the logic on why they used the same senior starter on a small engine.

As I recall the earlier discussion on the reason there was a torque difference it was because the Autolite starters with higher torques have larger or maybe it was more field coils -- 4 instead of 2 -- while the lower torque starters were somewhat field coil deprived.

Posted on: 11/1 14:58
Howard
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Re: 359 questions
#26
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PackardDon
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The proper starter for the 359 does not have a Bendix as I recall. Instead the solenoid itself, which is quite large and can be replaced only by removing the starter, engages it. In any event, for all these cars, the starters will physically interchange so no worries switching from one to another if you prefer.

Posted on: 11/1 16:16
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Re: 359 questions
#27
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54Les
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FWIW, here is a copy of the page from the 24th series service manual,if it attaches. Hope it doesn't add any confusion. Les

Attach file:



jpg  2022_11_01 4_29 PM Office Lens.jpg (323.69 KB)
141446_6361ad8235fbd.jpg 1440X1808 px

Posted on: 11/1 18:36
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Re: 359 questions
#28
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HH56
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Would be nice if someone had an Autolite catalog that detailed the differences -- and maybe a Delco catalog too. Near as I can see the Delco starters and the Autolite MCL 6113 used in 51 is a straight Bendix type. The MCL 6114 which was only used on the 2406 and 2506 engines is the pinion shift type. No idea using parts book numbers alone if the pinion shift continued into 53 and 54. The Packard specs does show Delco has a much lower torque than the Autolites.

The photo of the 6114 is from an ebay listing but is a parts only core offered without the nose. Maybe some unlucky person tried to run it on 12v and had the nose casting break as so many other year 6v Packard starters have done when running on 12v.

Attach file:



jpg  starter1.jpg (87.19 KB)
209_6361b170dc44b.jpg 1780X176 px

jpg  MCL 6114.jpg (110.35 KB)
209_6361b181a4008.jpg 1600X1600 px

Posted on: 11/1 18:56
Howard
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Re: 359 questions
#29
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Wat_Tyler
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Quote:
HH56 wrote: The photo of the 6114 is from an ebay listing but is a parts only core offered without the nose. Maybe some unlucky person tried to run it on 12v and had the nose casting break as so many other year 6v Packard starters have done when running on 12v.
Oh really. See, I had no idea of this. I was kind of thinking that the Clipper and 359 proposed car might be better off on 12 volts. That idea was swirling but hadn't gelled yet. The idea was to have enough voltage to be able to install the electronic ignition with confidence. A rethink may be in order.

Posted on: 11/2 5:24
If you're not having fun, maybe it's your own damned fault.
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Re: 359 questions
#30
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HH56
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Some have had OK luck and the starters worked for years on 12v until the one time they went to start the car only to get nothing but a strange noise. When removing the starter the unlucky ones found a crack in the casting or in some cases the nose casting broken completely in half and part of it laying next to the flywheel. There are a few photos on site showing surprises found when trying to find out what caused the noise.

12v causes the motor to spin so fast and with such increased torque and force the Bendix moving the pinion gear outward is slammed into the stop at the end of the nose. It can do this for only so long before something gives. If you want to run 12v you might want to check with an auto electric motor shop to investigate the possibility of having the starter converted to run properly at the higher voltage.

At the least you will want to change the regular small solenoid on Bendix only starters. If it is a pinion shift starter you will also want to consider what to do with that solenoid because those will overheat if energized for too long at the higher voltage and it may be hard to find a 12v unit that will fit a particular starter. The coils on those solenoids are wound around a core support the plunger slides in. Even energized at 6v for too long the core support will soften and distort and cause the plunger to stick. I have one of those damaged solenoids in my collection of useless parts.

Posted on: 11/2 8:35
Howard
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