Packard Forum Index » Project Blogs

bump

Al. U've had alot of engine problems. The following is an UNCONDITIONAL procedure to follow for engines of UNknown history that are not running and that u have never heard nor seen run at your own eye and at your own hand involving ANY engine of ANY manufacture of ANY year at ANY time and space:

1. Do a visual inspection of the engine. Doesn't matter if one knows what they are looking at or not. Do a visual inspection. Takes about 30 minutes to an hour. Just look it over.
2. Remove all spark plugs.
3. squirt oil in all cylinders.
4. turn engine BY HAND ONLY (do not attempt to use starter nor pushing nor pulling the car in gear) at least 2 full turns. 8 full turns better.
5. If engine hits a tite spot while turning by HAND or stops turning then DO NOT FORCE. Investigate why the engine will not turn by hand past that point.

Any, all and each and every other procedure for resurrecting an engine must FOLLOW AFTER and ONLY AFTER the above procedures have been accomplished without exception.

I am confused. The whole vale keeper thing only happens at high revs, not while turning the engine over by hand.

I am thinking that the real problem is valves stuck shut and valves stuck open. The usual culprit in that scenario is gum caused by running an engine on old gas. I have several times seen/heard of engines that ran OK out of storage, but the next morning there were massive valve problems "out of the blue" Can think of a 56 Patty, a 51 300, and a Gravely lawn tractor with similar tales---and many more.

You will need a cam and lifters and a careful check of all pushrods now. And, I'm pretty sure a careful cleaning of valves and guides.

I can also speak firsthand to bending several pushrods when trying an engine after it had an extended sleep. Some of the valves had rusted in place and their rods bent when engine turned over -- but not to that extent -- just a slight bow on them. The valves must have freed themselves or only been stuck half open.

No real symptom other than the starter grunted a few times when first tried then finally turned over as normal. Nothing ever locked but with several valves not co-operating, the engine never ran either.

I'm gonna back-pedal on the notion of cam timing being off. If it was, you'd have failures on multiple valves - not one at a time.

I've seen valves seized in their guides in non-running engines that were left to the elements for years. However, it's hard to imagine an engine that, IIRC, ran (just prior to this restoration) well enough to move the vehicle in/out of the garage, would have a valve stuck closed so badly that it would resist the force of the cam/lifter, thus bending the push rod. Then again, maybe the push rod slowly got bent into this shape - over repeated cycles.

However, if that lifter had stuck, the piston would hit an open valve. Yet, could the lifter have been stuck so bad that the impact of the piston could bend the push rod? You didn't mention any problem with removing that lifter. Then again, maybe...over repeated cycles

Looks like another chicken/egg scenario.

Gum in the gas has been known as one cause of sticking valves for decades - frequently cited in service newsletters. However, I also wonder if there's an oiling issue involved, here - though no mention of bottom-end problems.

Sticking valves could have been avoided with a valve job, and upgrade for unleaded fuel, but old gas in the tank, lines, and pump might have quickly undermined that work. With heads off, I would have also been tempted to pull all of the lifters just to check bottoms for tell-tale wear. Starting to sound like the old proverb about the want of a horseshoe nail.

Regardless, this engine now needs a top-to-bottom inspection.

See posts 316,319 and 322 by AL on two pages just previous to this one.

FIRST occurence of problem is indication of headS (note plural) having been removed. Mechanics visusal inspection indicating engine was recently rebuilt. THen "stuck" valve on ONE side, repaired and then to be followed by 'dropped vlave' on other side bending push rod.

Recent rebuild claim by mechanic is most likely due to no ridge at top of cylinder and valve seat/face conditions. Apparently only ONE head was removed on First stuck valve occurence, not both heads at the same time. Then 'dropped' valve on the other side.

PRoblem here is valves rusted in guides due to less than desireable storeage for long period and/or cam out of time upon recent rebuid.

All of this could be avoided and head removal avoided if engine had been pulled thru by HAND before jumping on it with the starter motor.

***** See edit correction ****** ... apparently Al never heard this engine ACTUALY RUN and still hasn't to this day. Therefore it has just been quick "go for it" attempts to get the engine running and thus the unnecessary damage that has occured in the process.*****

****EDIT : Apparently Al has ran the engine. See his history recap in the very next post.

Let me clear up up a mis-conscrewsion here.
Keith I did everything you said. Read back thru this whole operation, it is in there someplace. I have driven this car. I have had it running and for lengthy periods at a time. I would not have started on the rest of the car if I thought the engine was bad. I certainly would not have sold the 374 that I had on an engine stand if I thought the engine was bad. I sold it because the engine was running and running good. Rest assured guys I did not go off half cocked with an unknown engine. That is what was so damned perplexing about this, plus the engine was not running at high revs when it let loose, so even more strange. Oh well I gues murphy has been riding on my shoulder all along

ALK

THanks Al for history recap.
Determine specifically why the valve 'dropped'. Only 3 possibilities that i can think of. Rusted in guide, gummed in guide or GAULDED in the guide. Since the engine was running for lengthy periods of time and running WHILE the valve "dropped" then most likely the valve gaulded which means a lack of lubrication.

Since mechanic claims evidence of recent rebuild, and since engine was running while valve "dropped" we can most likely rule out rust or gum. That leaves valve stem gaulded in guide. If it gaulded in the guide then mechanic had to drive it out with a hammer using unusual force????

Gaulded in guide means LAck of lubrication which is either due to overhead oiling problem or the umbrella seal that was used during the recent rebuild was too small and dropped down over the top of the valve guide thus starving guide for oil thus gaulding stem and guide. THis most likey would occur on intake valves faster than exh.

Have the mechanic measure the INNER diameter of the OPEN CAVITY of the umbrella seal. LEt us know what that inner diamter is. Also, check the umbrella seal to determine if it is soft and pliable or hard and brittle.

This mechanic has done all the work on this that he is going to do. As soon as I can I will get the car over to the custom shop that is was painted in(they also do engine work as well). They will yank the engine andf I will get it over to the machine shop. They will tear it apart and determine if the engine is worth rebuilding. That is when descions will be made.

Keith

Where do you come up up with your conclusions? I.E.

"Bottom line: apparently Al never heard this engine ACTUALY RUN and still hasn't to this day. Therefore it has just been quick "go for it" attempts to get the engine running and thus the unnecessary damage that has occured in the process."

If you have been following this blog thruout the process, you would have known that easily way back when, that I not only heard the car run but drove it. That is why I had it painted and the interior done. I would never have started any of that if I had even a suspicion that the engine was bad. I took the proper steps(IMHO) just bad luck is all.

As far as evidence of 'recent' rebuild, that is not entirely true. His statement was "it looked like it had been rebuilt", as evidenced by the fact that the heads looked like they had just been done and put on. They were absolutely clean, no sludge build-up of any kind. This was also borne out by the statement of the man that I bought it from. He said he had gone thru the engine completely, however he also told me that the engine was a 374 when in actual fact it is a 352. Something he should have known if the engine had been "gone thru' I'm thinking that maybe he just did the heads, and lord only knows who did it and how.
Except for the current problem, nothing on this car is recent. I got the car in the fall of 2006. I started the restoration process in 2007 and it has been ongoing since then.

However, I did not take everything at face value. I spun it over by hand, did all of the step by step process you stated and then fired it off. It ran like a top. The mechanic said that he, indeed, had to pound out the valve. As I said it will go to a machine shop for them to give me chapter and verse on this engine, then I can decide what to do.

mine is a 352 block bored to a 374, could this be the case for you as well?

could still be a 374. measure the pistons....4"=352 4 1/8"=374

just a thought

Hank