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Kev.

I agree it's nice to have that up-to-date registry. It seem a little ironic, though, and maybe even unfair, to list a car in a registry which is meant to inform and entertain all, yet deny the owner of the car access to post on the forums.

If Pete wishes to have his car removed from the registry, all he has to do is drop me an email and would be happy to comply.

Pete is a habitual forum bully, and has been shown the door at every major automotive forum numerous times, so I have no remorse for showing him the door again. I have given him more than a few chances to play nice.

Frankly by coming on here with different aliases, bogus emails, fictitious information after he has been asked to leave violates internet law here in the US. That is exactly what was recently used as a statue to prosecute the "MySpace Mom" from Missouri here in Calif as she created fictitious account to harass a young girl who later committed suicide. They could not directly prosecute her for her role in the suicide, but charge her with illegally accessing a computer system from the fictions account she created using bogus information. One of these days Pete is going to piss off the wrong webmaster or website, and be in more hot-water than his V12-Olds rear can pull him out of.

You know, the sad commentary is, the guy is pretty sharp. In person, he is full of energy and very social and loves Packards. I have never heard him bash on the non-V-12 cars in person. It just seems like he gets into some strange mode on-line. Honestly you would think at some point one would ask ones self "is it all these forum moderators and members on numerous sites, or is it me?"

I was really bummed when he started in on me after a tough year of doing everything I could to get my car on the road. I had met him, and had heard from a number of individuals of his tactics, especially on the net. Had I not been strong willed and willing to dish it right back, I may have just said, "why bother with this Packard deal" I wonder how many quietly slipped away because of this unfortunate behavior.

I strongly feel that this site breaks away from the old ways of Pre-war v. Post War / V-8 Studebaker hierarchy. It's all here!, and every one loves it. I do get concerned when an innocent question is met with a barrage of short poignant "no need to do that" with scathing testimonial of how needless it would be (speaking in generalities). Why not take a second and welcome these folks (aside from the time honored tradition of welcome to the forum, please post to the owners registry), find out what their expectations for the vehicle will be, and go from there. If it bothers someone to much, skip the post and move on. 5 minutes of experience or 50 years, we are all enthusiasts and can learn from one another. Though not often a problem, this business of "I've been at this for 50 years, never heard of that problem / issue, there for it must not exist, you are dismissed" is a little discouraging; especially for the fellows working on the cars here and now, not decades ago.

A while back, there was a poster here that went by OldGold. As I remember he got harangued by another forum member, not really a Packard guy, some kind of professional restorer. As I remember, this other poster was mad because he was poked at about modifications to his car. He got real mean about this OldGolds car being modified and everyone liking it. He kind of faded away, or was banned I'm not sure. Sadly, the car went from OldGold stopped posting. The car was in Bay City Mi. and wound up less than 2 miles from my house here in Arizona. The guy who bought it tore the engine/trans out and told me all about what he was going to do to the car. 454 / 700R4 and the usual catalog pieces. I was really bummed, but gave him $250 for the engine and sent it off to the Packard guys in Texas. At least the engine went to a good home and will help keep another Packard alive and on the road. The car is yet again on the market, engineless and showing little promise. That's fine, it's the new owners prerogative but lets face it, the young fellow who started it probably would have been the best person to have finished it and owned the car.

Lets get as many of these great old cars back on the road as possible, regardless of the owners taste meeting our individual criteria. This site is a great way to attract and retain people of all ages interested in various aspects of the Packard Motorcar Co.

Jim

Gerd, your mastery of the internet, computers, and PackardInfo.com combined with what could only be a photographic memory is most impressive! I need a post it note to remind me to look at my calendar.

Quote:

The Registry situation just struck me as unique in this case. As far as who is listed, banned, berated, or chooses to be removed I have nothing to say. I don't see why anyone would want to be removed. The point is I think it's somewhat presumptive to accept a person's listing for the benefit of the site, and deny the owner full access to the site. Will he be allowed to come on from time to time and update the listing?

Rather than a "bully," Mr. Hartmann, strikes me as a willing buffoon and seeker of attention who ends up being more often a scapegoat and easy target, goaded into doing battle , and doing so without a great talent for self-preservation. He also appears to have a lot of Packard information that would be particularly valuable to the prewar enthusiasts. Sometimes, he does not admit to deficiencies in his knowledge. In this he is not unique.

Unlike olden times, when I pretty much figured that the people who have known of Mr. Hartmann from previous boards knew a lot better than I what horrors he was likely to perpetrate if left unchecked, I have been around for about 8 years or so now and have developed a somewhat different picture of him than what was painted for me in the past.

As for the propriety of his posts, he has a sort of bombastic style and takes a mock-confrontational approach, but I've never seen any of his posts that could be labeled much worse than paternalistic or narrow minded. I agree, he is often sarcastic, but in such an obvious way that it's hard to take seriously. Besides, he certainly has no corner on sarcasm here.

The usual story is that he appears under a new avatar and soon some very sharp fellows will "detect" and "expose" him--like that's somehow a big trick--and speak of his "tactics" of infiltrating a forum, being "nice" for a while, and then degenerating into a name-calling, belligerent so-and-so. In other words, they poison the well. Lots of great examples of his gross impropriety are gleaned from the past (do people keep PFH hate notebooks or what?). Then, if he responds in kind, or even mildly, a chorus of self-righteous and often *xpletive-ridden responses follow. Thus ensuring that everyone who may not be familiar with this playground battle knows who the "bad guy" is.

I really think, though have no proof, that this pique against PFH goes back a long way for a some, probably back before the internet, and they mean to keep him out no matter how much they have to goad him. If you watch carefully, the "bad" PFH does not so much exist on its own, as it is created by those who want him out.

Why take any time to attack a dedicated troll (if that's what he is)? Anyone with internet savvy knows that ignoring a troll is a much more effective maneuver than going to battle.

Therefore, with all due respect, methinks the lads doth protest too much.

And really, if any of you folks are considering ending it all because PFH is just TOO MEAN, then you really really need to seek help. That part is stretching it a bit, don't you think, Kev? I know your position here deserves more credit than I can give, and you're a heck of a good webmaster in my book, but I have to point out that the comparison is unfortunate--some folks are liable to take it up as a new cause for reviling PFH, and he certainly isn't pushing anyone to take rash measures... maybe some have been driven to tears of rage, but that's all.

INTERNET BULLIES

I am sorry to learn your and other auto-related forums have been stalked, bullied, and harrassed by an Internet Abuser, apparently known as "Petey".

I am very sorry to learn that apparently to date, nothing has been done officially to put a stop to this person's abuse of your and other auto-related forums.

Unfortunately, the anomonous individual who advised me about this "Petey's" repeated harrassement and bullying, did not enclose a copy of his offending posts.

I used your forum's search field for this "Petey" but came up with nothing. Your forum manager has elected to remove all of his posts. I can only guess how bad this "Petey's" posts were from some of your responses to him.

You are or should be aware that this "Petey's" stalking, harrassing, bullying, and apparently, in this "Petey's' case, spreading false information about automotive matters, are not only forbidden by Internat Service Protocols, this kind of conduct may be in violation of federal and state law.

All of us who enjoy the Internet have a right to be free of stalking, bullying, and other forms of harrassement.

Hopefully, your forum manager or one or more of you have retained copies of the offending posts of this "Petey".

If so, please foward them to your Internet Service Provider NOW. You may also wish to contact your local law enforcement, who may have proceedures in place to handle this.

Remedies against stalkers and bullies can include denial of Internet access, money damages, court-ordered psychiatric care, and even incarceration.

I am troubled that more than one of you has concluded this "Petey" may be mentally unbalanced. At least one of you believes he has met this "Petey" in person and finds him "social". Taken together, this suggests you may have identified a dangerous predator. All the more reason that if you have copies of the "posts", to report this "Petey" NOW.

There are a number of ways you can do this without revealing your identity. You can use a Temporary Screen Name, as I have, to contact you. It can then be erased. You can make copies of the posts, and simply mail them to the appropriate prosecuting entities.

Or, if you wish, I can foward them to the appropriate entities; however, this Temporary Screen name will only remain open for FIVE BUSINESS DAYS.

Finally, beware of and do not respond to anyone requesting information from you through the Internet. Should you desire to be a witness, and/or give further information, legitimate Internet Service Provider Investigators and law enforcement can contact you thru your forum manager, by U.S. Mail, on a letter-head that can be verified.

Again, it appears you have a repeat offender, who will strike again at your or othe forums unless stopped. PLEASE REPORT HIM TODAY.

Really! You have got to be kidding!

NoMoreBully: Please delete your post as far as I am concerned what you have posted isn't wanted here.

John F. Shireman

Pete is as predictable as the at the sun in San Diego....purged.