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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Riki - I don't have a press but I know guys that do. So I should be able to get my hands on the proper tools when that time comes.
Don - good point. I know the whole brake system was rebuilt, with all new components from front to rear, when Bob owned it before. But I believe most of that work was done 10-15 years ago. I'd have to check the receipts to be positive. Replacing the other cylinders isn't the end of the world and would give piece of mind. I was very pleased with how much better the brakes were after I bled and adjusted.
Posted on: Yesterday 13:52
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Kevin
1954 Clipper Super Panama | Registry | Project Blog 1938 Super 8 1605 | Registry | Project Blog 1953 Clipper Deluxe Club Sedan | Registry | Project Blog |
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Quote:
Same with my 400 and that's why I'm redoing them. 
Posted on: Yesterday 14:02
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1955 400 | Registry | Project Blog
1955 Clipper Deluxe | Registry | Project Blog 1955 Clipper Super Panama | Registry Email (Parts/service inquiries only, please. Post all questions on the forum.) service@ultramatic.info |
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Quote:
2. Braking dive is a natural dynamic action of vehicles with a suspension. So if you start with a level car and put it in H, D, or L, go forward, then stop, when you continue forward the car will no longer be level but will remain at the maximum attitude achieved during the stop. If you execute multiple stops will the attitude continue to increase? If the headlights are pointing at the ground, have you checked the aim of the headlights? The aim as defined on page 45 of the electrical section (8) of the service manual is measured 25 feet from the car so the angle would have to change significantly to have "the headlights only illuminate 15 feet in front of the car". We need a better frame of reference to use headlight illumination as a measurement. It should level in any gear. If the difference between leveling and not leveling is the gear you are in, check to see of there is an interruption in the power into the control box. Next it would be testing the ground signal to the Down limit switch (Blue and Yellow) to make sure the delay switch and limit switch are working. With eh condition of the Up limit switch, you may want to look at the Down limit switch. You have been moving those wires around a bit. 3. You know that there is hydraulic pressure in the rear line as the rear passenger wheel locks. Your inspection of the other three wheel cylinders was that they looked dry. The pistons might not be moving well, far enough, or some not at all. With the price of wheel cylinders it seems to me to be worth it for the most important function. I can lock all four wheels on mine. Of course I'm used to extreme and threshold braking from my years n the racetrack. Someone here in a different thread described his as feeling like they would put him through the windshield.
Posted on: Yesterday 20:58
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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The other week I was driving with Ross in his 51 and he was showing it off a bit. On the impromptu stopping test, the tires gave off a good squeal, so I'm thinking we locked the rears. And that's a car with MANUAL brakes.
The BTV units, as we know, are so sensitive that you can command max brake pressure almost by accident, so I'd think you could lock at least both rears.
Posted on: Yesterday 21:29
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1955 400 | Registry | Project Blog
1955 Clipper Deluxe | Registry | Project Blog 1955 Clipper Super Panama | Registry Email (Parts/service inquiries only, please. Post all questions on the forum.) service@ultramatic.info |
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Some "brake dive" is normal. If it is excessive, the problem could be worn shock absorbers, front, rear, or both, weak front springs, or dry or weak rear springs. A lack of lubrication of front and rear suspension parts, including leaf springs, can cause excess stiffness, with will cause issues.
Too much friction in suspension parts will cause ride, stance, and handling issues and would probably interfere with any kind of automatic ride leveling system.
Posted on: Yesterday 21:41
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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The essence of Torsion Level (and any other interconnected suspension system) is to give the effect of suspending the car at its center of gravity rather than at points far removed from the CG. Think balancing a pencil on your finger.That is what gives the pitch-free ride within certain practical constraints and also necessitates the leveling system to compensate for the shifting of the CG as loads and passengers are introduced.
The immediate corollary is that without some hysteresis built into the system, the car will seesaw from end to end. Think trying to run around your house with a pencil balanced on your finger. That is why having the bushings in a TL car in good shape is so important. They work just like twisting the flesh on your finger--they want to return to the neutral position and thus stabilize the system. The usual symptom of bad bushings is the leveler running very frequently as the car settles first to one end then the other. My 56 Clipper had all new bushings and in an afternoon of running errands might level once or twice. To your symptoms: The brake light switch is purposed to turn the leveler off while braking; if your car perchance has one of the VW three-prong brake light switches instead of an original (switch has blades rather than pins for connection) the normal residual pressure in the brake system will keep the leveler turned off even though the brake lights go on and off normally. Eventually the pressure dies down and the leveler works again. I don't use the VW switches any more and substitute a GM mechanical switch that clamps to the steering column and presses against the brake pedal shank. The second important item is that the front shocks in particular can not have a strong rebound action or they will pull the front of the car down as you drive--especially on bumpy roads. This leads to a battle between the leveler and the shocks, AND if you have the VW switch you will be nose down most of the time. No fun.
Posted on: Today 7:23
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Quote:
Thank Ross! This makes a lot of sense. I do have the VW brake switch installed. And what you said is exactly what I'm experiencing. When off the brake the car takes forever to level but usually eventually does. And I can definitely tell that I'm driving nose down. Super annoying. I see that Dwight has the mechanical switch setup in stock, so I may just go that route and bypass the VW switch all together. I'm using the KYB shocks that Dwight recommends, so I'm assuming that the rebound on those is not a problem. They are not heavy duty shocks. Only 1" bore. The ones I pulled off would not rebound at all...once compressed they stayed compressed. And it sounds like I will be replacing bushings. I would like this car to ride as it should. I'll start gathering the materials and will hopefully tackle that project in the next month or so. I have a few other immediate issues to work out first.
Posted on: Today 9:25
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Kevin
1954 Clipper Super Panama | Registry | Project Blog 1938 Super 8 1605 | Registry | Project Blog 1953 Clipper Deluxe Club Sedan | Registry | Project Blog |
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Re: Mojave Tan - A 1956 400 Saga
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Great explanation from Ross, but to clarify a bit:
The physical effect keeping the car level when stopping or going is the torque reaction of the rear axle, which loads the system whenever there is torque on the rear axle. This is a very important and intentional feature. The effective spring rate of the TL system compared to conventional springs is HALF, so without this effect, the seesaw on stopping or going would be DOUBLE. The great reduction in the seesaw effect is a direct result of this engineered feature. On the other hand, when hitting a bump, there is very little reaction torque on the axle (assuming driving under light throttle, or coasting) but we know the car will stay level. In this case, it's because the combination of the reduced effective spring rate and the axle coupling, reducing the impulse on the car, and tending to raise the car at both ends, respectively. But once you clear the bump a split second later, the system needs to return to its neutral state, and that's where the bushings need to be good, and the shocks not too strong. While there are aspects of the TL system with hysteresis (for example, the leveling system itself, as Ross mentioned), the response to an ideal suspension system to an impulse is a sinusoid with inverse exponential decay, which is not a hysteretic response. Worn bushings will add hysteresis to the system where we don't want it. The bushings are elastic and are hence basically little springs of their own, helping to push the various parts to their respective neutral positions. As they get worn out, they won't have the force to overcome the friction of the system, and it will tend to settle in a random, slightly off position. As an analogy, take a long rubber band and wrap it around a paperweight. You'll find that it won't move smoothly or precisely if you pull on the band to move the weight around your desk, instead moving in bursts, and ending up in a position that's a bit off from where you tried to make it go. The effect of worn bushings is comparable. As for the switch, I advise just adding a relay to a two-position switch. It's really quite easy, and costs almost nothing. Edit: Here is how to do the relay.packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb ... 4055&post_id=232530#forumpost232530 Also I have a couple 3-prong switches lying around, but have not tested them. Edit 2: Forgot you are using DOT 5 silicone fluid. In that case, I think the mechanical switch would be the best option.
Posted on: Today 9:33
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1955 400 | Registry | Project Blog
1955 Clipper Deluxe | Registry | Project Blog 1955 Clipper Super Panama | Registry Email (Parts/service inquiries only, please. Post all questions on the forum.) service@ultramatic.info |
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