Packard Forum Index » Pre-War (1899-1942)

If this stuff is around and is legitimate then that's great for the books that say it could be had. However, just because you could buy a purple suede interior with shag rugs and bangles hanging from the headliner doesn't mean every car should have that. It seems that every exception is becoming the rule to the point where these cars are unrecognizable. I don't understand why everybody is trying to restyle Packards.

The Twelve I saw with black medallions was so long ago, they could have been painted over. Those old lead based enamels would stick to anything.

I've never seen a bone stock original car with anything other than standard hubcaps. I went through all my pictures of poorly stored barn cars and they all have standard hubcaps (and plated radiators). If somebody has the first edition (1964) of automobile quarterly there is a color picture of Paul Lamb's Original 34 in it. I used to have it but I lost a few boxes of things in a move so I can't look to see what hubcaps are on it. I don't remember them being special either.

Another caveat is that some of those old photos are press photos and the cars may be props. In Hollywood photos were always being retouched. Somewhere there has to be a document specifying these options. I don't see it in the data books. Turnquist really only talked about the color of the hexagon and said it was available for 35-38. He also says it was a common option on the eights. That's baloney in my opinion.

Advertisements are not reliable. Here in Detroit I see cars used for advertising that are prototypes and don't match the finished goods.

And heck, one of the cars that passed through here ended up on Jay Leno's garage. How do I know? It had prototype trim which was better looking in my opinion than the final product.

I'm that "34 Packard guy" in S.E. MI. I've done a dozen of em, about to do 2 more. I learned of the hubcap color scandal in 2009. I was given some things to reference in order to qualify the info. It's correct. Body, chassis or trim color is what's used. Looked at a really original Super 8 Spt Phaeton with red trim and chassis. Hubcaps were the chassis red (a bit orange really) but the center hex was the standard red. As I understand it it's the lettered field and the stripes that get painted (cloisonne' not discussed). The center hex looks red to me in all the original pictures I've seen. This includes pictures of new cars on display in showrooms. I guess that would remove any "Hollywood prop" ideas, wouldn't it? And why someone getting a car shined up (then sprayed with hairspray to kill the gloss in places) for posed pictures would even consider changing hubcap color makes no sense. It wasn't until 90 that I learned about the body-color welt, and all the previous cars I did we just used black. Now they're all in color. 34 and older Packard cars are all senior series. You could make an exception for the Light 8 (900 and 1001) but even those have many of the senior attributes too. I don't think I'd subscribe to idea "...one big custom shop...", but I would accept "One big job shop". When one considers the volume of cars produced by Ford, GM, etc, vs the volume of PMCC that idea is easy to get your head around. Chrome radiator shells vs painted? It's in the books, the customer could order it in the fashion they chose. A painted shell on an 1101 is certainly NOT WRONG. Was it uber popular? I'm not old enough to say with conviction, but I will say that certain versions of 11th series cars sure do look better with them painted. If the choice was there I don't see the harm.

I had a client years ago that took liberties with his cars. I never liked it but he paid the bill so I didn't care if he wanted his car screaming yellow with hot pink fenders. The last one i did for him I did care. I almost lost the job because of it. "You'll do it my way or I'll take to _______." I think he left it because I replied, "Take it there, I don't care. I'm not wrong on this and you know I've never lead you astray, but this one has to be this way or I want no part of it." It became his favorite of all his cars when it was done and I was fairly obsessive about authentic details. I never take anyone's word for it (except maybe Brian Burke) and do my own research with only factory pictures, showroom/dealer pics preferred. Too easy to get balled up looking at pre-production or plant "posed" cars. You can't wrong that way, and the parts book is a nice backup to that. Just sayin...

None of this proves anything. I can only rely on what I have on hand - not a single original car coming out of a barn with other than standard hubcaps, and not a single period picture or car (eight) coming out of a barn with a painted radiator shell with the exception of black out cars (shell and shutters painted on custom bodies).

I know a little bit about Turnquist's frame of mind as regards some of his "historical" facts. His book has a lot of verbiage about body swaps and how they are legitimate and that caused enough car chopping that clubs started to place restrictions on those cars. But what isn't well known is that his 840 Individual Custom Eight by Dietrich was made up from two cars. The body came from a car that was a wreck. The running gear, fenders, and trim parts came from a car that Ted Kavenagh found on a railroad property. It was an 840 club sedan that was converted to a railroad inspection car. It was totally straight and complete right down to the original Adonis and stone shield. What Turnquist didn't mention is that body swapping only works if the springs and shocks are transferred with the body, so a lot of these made up cars do not ride the way they are supposed to.

Another example is his talk of painted hexagons. I never saw the car in person, only in pictures that Ted Kavenagh had from the fifties before it was totaled, but Turnquist's 38 Super 8 convertible sedan supposedly was a Twelve with a Su8 motor and that was original. However, it could have been a prototype or something that got out. And there was something fishy about the hubcaps on that car.

I know someone whose grandfather worked for Packard and had access to the corporate fleet. He told me that his grandfather was always coming home with different cars and that cars were also being brought over from the plant to his house. So who knows what might be floating around in the photographic record?

What I also don't see is any blatant evidence that coachbuilders were using anything other than standard hubcaps. Blacked out yes, but painted crazy colors? no. I do have one period picture of a 36 that looks like it could have this painted hubcap stuff. Except that the spares look standard, the hexagons look very light, and the picture is overexposed in black and white.

So I think all these supposed special exceptions is nothing but crap made up for a self serving purpose. Back in the 60's and 70's, when chrome plating was cheaper than painting, people were plating everything under the hood and saying that Packard would do that if it was ordered. That was complete crap. Today plating is expensive so they have to make up new stuff.

Do I think cars were modified at the dealer? Sure. There are reports of that in the Packard archives. But that doesn't mean that sealed beam headlights should be on a 29 Packard.

I think that people are making this stuff up because their assertions are not supported by any meaningful corroboration other than so and so the expert says this and that is correct without a shred of evidence to support it.
Not even one picture of a car being towed out of a barn with any of these modifications. What I do see are cars that make me want to throw up because I remember when they were original.

Today's Packard restorations are baloney. The last show I was at I spent most of my time looking at the beautiful original Cadillacs.

Tim, I pretty much agree with most all that you say, like you I get a little weary of the lame excuse for deviation from originality by saying "it's a Packard, you could have anything you wanted". I do however agree with Highlander about painted radiator shells, I've seen just a very few that were without doubt authentic, especially on Twelves. And of course on customs such as the ex-Vanderbilt Eight 1101 Rollston (pictured below). And on this particular car I think it's a perfect choice for the severely restrained and conservative style.

And, though it's from a different era, non-standard hub caps were occasionally seen on customs, here's a cap from a 1st Series Twin Six by Brunn.

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I find thid conversation fascinating. If a car is restored and a color change is made on hub caps or any item, why cant the car be shown with a notation on the showboard description of the item as being changed? Either for design, cust taste or as available from manufacturer but not orig to the particular car. I would certainly have more respect for someone who did this rather than somone who presents these as original with no photos or proof of that particular car before restoration. Just another claim to suggest one cars value is greater than another.

Right here on this site, within the photo archive, look at all the 10th and 11th series pictures. I've looked at every page skipping most of the restored car shots and focused on the original stuff. Look at fender welt, hub caps, and frankly anything else that can foster debates of authenticity. Once done season what's seen with a bit of logic and all of it will make sense. Some may never embrace the idea of what Packard would do for their prospects, some will always take it too far in order to serve their own needs/taste/vision. That's not now nor ever will be a new thought or idea. Until you have the decades of research an experience needed to truly KNOW this stuff it's just chin music. If there's no "skin in the game" we could say or challenge whatever we like. I'll stand by, and frankly back up, that which is questioned on any of mine where it's of merit. Past that, my clients are the ones I care about more than anything, and where I'm trusted to take them during the journey of restoration.

"The journey of restoration"

Restoration: restore to its original state.
if you "restore" to your personal preference it's technically not restoring. If a person ordered a factory packard in the 30's and it has an unique feature that doesn't give the "freedom" to others to restore theirs that way and say "packard offered it". When you restore, in my opinion, you go back to how that car left the factory or dealer. If you chose not to go that route it should be noted in the vehicle's description. When you restore a VanGogh you don't add another item to the painting cause VanGogh did paint that in another painting!

Sounds like semantics to me. If you bring a car back to an authentic state, specifically a Packard, unless you have some form of paper record as to what 739-32 was, or it's in unbelievable and complete condition with enough original paint left to determine it's color, then making it authentic is still R E S T O R A T I O N. Does every Model A Ford that's been restored have some paper trail to PROVE that it was black, blue, Copra Drab, green? Of course not. You want "as-was" restoration activity? Do a muscle car that has tags and codes. And FWIW, I never thought of even the finest of heavy American Classic cars in the same vein as a "Van Gogh" or any other singular form of art. Many times these discussions end up sounding like they're watered with "Haterade", or like sour grapes. Based on this topic and replies, suppose I find a 34 718 2-4 coupe. Decades ago someone painted it in really ugly colors and stripped it before hand. No photo record exists of it's condition before, little known history. I buy it, restore it to all Packard Blue with Gold Bronze pin stripes, blackwall tires, blue wheels, a black leather interior with a dark grey cloth headliner, neutral tan hogshair carpet bound in black leather, all the correct wiring, decals, tags, fit and finish, gauges, etc, etc, etc. According to that thought it's wrong. Why? In my mind's eye I see it as done to the most demanding of detail and known info and color/chrome/stripe options. I'd even paint the top insert material body color. Why? Because that's how it was done. That's how I would want it. I'd also want it devoid of any chrome acorn nuts or any number of other available engine dress of the time. I'd have the wiring wrapped in metal bands just like they were and the fender welt would be body color as well. And since it was the topic starter, the letter field and stripes on the caps would also be Packard Blue. I'd expect it to be a contender for an "Alvan MacCauley" award as well because my documentation and OEM photos would be with it at the time of judging to remove any doubts as to it's authentic restoration and presentation. I honestly believe that unless someone drinks a big jug of the aforementioned Haterade that nothing I presented in that hypothetical is wrong or not in keeping with the preservation of the marque. Oh snap, I forgot to mention that it would also have a painted shell and a rear spare. Once again, just sayin, and I'd be happy to help anyone sort out things if they're embarking on a proper restoration of a 33-4 Packard, but the parts book, "Packard The Complete History" by Kimes, and an available plethora of factory or period photos are available at swap meets to confirm anything one would like to know. I've been at this for 43 years, and in the last 12 to 15 years I've learned more than all the other years prior.

If you don't know the authentic state in which it left the factory, you try to make it as correct as possible in my opinion. You don't pick a color that wasn't available at the time of production and say that packard would paint it any color you wanted! And there are numerous other details (painted hubcaps, coloissone, grill shell, etc) that you could change or add. I was not trying to get into a pissing match here, but I think we should keep these vehicles as close to original as possible for future generations.

If you don't know the authentic state in which it left the factory, you try to make it as correct as possible in my opinion. You don't pick a color that wasn't available at the time of production and say that packard would paint it any color you wanted! And there are numerous other details (painted hubcaps, coloissone, grill shell, etc) that you could change or add. I was not trying to get into a pissing match here, but I think we should keep these vehicles as close to original as possible for future generations.