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Your OD cutout circuit isn't acting up again is it?

Petronix does not work very well on 6 volt cars.Besides, points are readily available for the 356 at NAPA and they will probably last 6 or 7 years given the amount of driving one does on an antique car.

No boots on the wires from Potomac.

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Howard et al,

How I wish it were so. I feel like this is a major confession, and that expertise shouldn't be wasted on the stupid, so I have kept quiet about this recent circumstance.

I had planned to drive to Ashland, Oregon last Saturday. The car was hesitating a bit when wound up in 2nd gear. I thought it needed a tune-up. I thought I could (should) do the tune-up, or at least install the new parts for the tune-up.

As someone suggested, the cause may have been a dirty fuel filter, and no tune-up was necessary.

On Wednesday after work, I merrily checked the specs for the new plugs, Champions, identical to the ones installed, gap .028, and installed them. No difference in performance. I unlatched the distributor cap and replaced the rotor.
I transferred the ignition cables 1 for 1 to the new cap....only I didn't realize that the cap only goes on 1 way. So starting with the new cap upside down I transferred the cables back to the old rotor. I test drove it down the street, and it didn't run any better. Maybe a little worse.

I pulled all the cables from the cap. I used the wiring diagram to replace them. If you look at the 1940 wiring diagram, as I took for gospel, it shows the firing order as 1-6-2-5-8-3-7-4, a set of numbers that will live in infamy.

It shows specifically where the low tension connection is. It shows which number cable goes where, the order being clockwise. The engine would not run. I pulled all the wires out again and looked at them by length. These were custom cut from a universal Belden kit, but still. I plugged the longest 2 at the bottom, the next two closer, etc. Then I looked at the numbers in relation to the firing order, switched a couple of cables to get 16258374 and tried again. It still wouldn't run.

So I started from scratch. I turned the engine with the starter, so the marks on the damper were close to the pointer. I looked at the rotor and it was pointing to like 7 o'clock, just left of the bottom latch indentation. (Are you laughing yet? I was near crying.) I put the No1 cable in that slot, and the rest in order, clockwise, per the manual. I moved all the wires (verifying each cables origin) over 1 and tried. Nada. I had one big backfire. Then I moved the wires back one. Nada. In the course of resetting the damper I noticed that the rotor could also point to 2 o'clock. So I tried that, since nothing worked starting at 7. No good. Then I noticed when I turned the engine that the fan turned COUNTER-clockwise. I was like a lab animal having an aha! moment. I moved the engine in tiny starter bursts and checked the rotor. It was definitely moving counter-clockwise. I connected the wires counter-clockwise, and it fired right up. I test drove it, and it still hesitated. I had to be at the airport at 11pm. It was 9:30pm. I took the other car. My objective for all this was still to drive the car to Ashland, 300 miles, on Saturday. I thought, it's just a matter of tweaking.

Not willing to leave well enough alone, Thursday night I installed the points. The new ones NAPA sold me would not fit in the distributor. They said the listing was for all 41-47 Packards. I had a spare set of points which had no adjustment hole, just 1 for attaching. So I installed those. Now it wouldn't run. (I would like to know what number to ask for if Napa actually has the points for a 356 engine. That would be a huge help.) Yes, I probably set the gap incorrectly, .015 is what I tried for. I had to give up for the night.

I'm only putting you through all this because the car is still not running.

Friday I called my friend Vaughn. He is far more knowledgeable about mechanics and Packards. OK he chuckled about the counter clockwise thing. He gave me a 6V timing light he'd been carrying around. He had a break in his day and was willing to come help me. I left work early and he picked me up. He set the points correctly. He put a white mark on the damper. We weren't getting spark. We verified there was spark from the ignition switch. Checked the wires for position. Got a spare coil and bypassed the one on the car. No change. We disconnected the OD cut out from the low-tension terminal to eliminate that possibility again. No change. We poured some gas down the carb. Nothing. He had to leave.

I reinstalled the old points and set them as Vaughn had shown me. Spark was getting through to the timing light, where I checked #1, then 2, then 3, then 4. I removed 4 spark plugs and reinstalled 4 old ones, which Vaughn said were in perfect shape (3,000 miles). But that didn't make any difference.

I charged the battery. It was fully charged on fast charge, then I switched it to slow 2 amp trickle until it was fully charged.

Yesterday I ordered original style cables from Potomac Packard. Last night I changed the fuel filter, which was a little dirty. I replaced the coil. The ammeter needle wiggles when I push the starter. The timing light lights on #1. It was late, so I waited to start it this morning. The car does not start.

How can this be that hard?

There it is. I can take pix tonight after work if there's anything you want to see.




Joe

Howard et al,

How I wish it were so. I feel like this is a major confession, and that expertise shouldn't be wasted on the stupid, so I have kept quiet about this recent circumstance.

I had planned to drive to Ashland, Oregon last Saturday. The car was hesitating a bit when wound up in 2nd gear. I thought it needed a tune-up. I thought I could (should) do the tune-up, or at least install the new parts for the tune-up.

As someone suggested, the cause may have been a dirty fuel filter, and no tune-up was necessary.

On Wednesday after work, I merrily checked the specs for the new plugs, Champions, identical to the ones installed, gap .028, and installed them. No difference in performance. I unlatched the distributor cap and replaced the rotor.
I transferred the ignition cables 1 for 1 to the new cap....only I didn't realize that the cap only goes on 1 way. So starting with the new cap upside down I transferred the cables back to the old rotor. I test drove it down the street, and it didn't run any better. Maybe a little worse.

I pulled all the cables from the cap. I used the wiring diagram to replace them. If you look at the 1940 wiring diagram, as I took for gospel, it shows the firing order as 1-6-2-5-8-3-7-4, a set of numbers that will live in infamy.

It shows specifically where the low tension connection is. It shows which number cable goes where, the order being clockwise. The engine would not run. I pulled all the wires out again and looked at them by length. These were custom cut from a universal Belden kit, but still. I plugged the longest 2 at the bottom, the next two closer, etc. Then I looked at the numbers in relation to the firing order, switched a couple of cables to get 16258374 and tried again. It still wouldn't run.

So I started from scratch. I turned the engine with the starter, so the marks on the damper were close to the pointer. I looked at the rotor and it was pointing to like 7 o'clock, just left of the bottom latch indentation. (Are you laughing yet? I was near crying.) I put the No1 cable in that slot, and the rest in order, clockwise, per the manual. I moved all the wires (verifying each cables origin) over 1 and tried. Nada. I had one big backfire. Then I moved the wires back one. Nada. In the course of resetting the damper I noticed that the rotor could also point to 2 o'clock. So I tried that, since nothing worked starting at 7. No good. Then I noticed when I turned the engine that the fan turned COUNTER-clockwise. I was like a lab animal having an aha! moment. I moved the engine in tiny starter bursts and checked the rotor. It was definitely moving counter-clockwise. I connected the wires counter-clockwise, and it fired right up. I test drove it, and it still hesitated. I had to be at the airport at 11pm. It was 9:30pm. I took the other car. My objective for all this was still to drive the car to Ashland, 300 miles, on Saturday. I thought, it's just a matter of tweaking.

Not willing to leave well enough alone, Thursday night I installed the points. The new ones NAPA sold me would not fit in the distributor. They said the listing was for all 41-47 Packards. I had a spare set of points which had no adjustment hole, just 1 for attaching. So I installed those. Now it wouldn't run. (I would like to know what number to ask for if Napa actually has the points for a 356 engine. That would be a huge help.) Yes, I probably set the gap incorrectly, .015 is what I tried for. I had to give up for the night.

I'm only putting you through all this because the car is still not running.

Friday I called my friend Vaughn. He is far more knowledgeable about mechanics and Packards. OK he chuckled about the counter clockwise thing. He gave me a 6V timing light he'd been carrying around. He had a break in his day and was willing to come help me. I left work early and he picked me up. He set the points correctly. He put a white mark on the damper. We weren't getting spark. We verified there was spark from the ignition switch. Checked the wires for position. Got a spare coil and bypassed the one on the car. No change. We disconnected the OD cut out from the low-tension terminal to eliminate that possibility again. No change. We poured some gas down the carb. Nothing. He had to leave.

I reinstalled the old points and set them as Vaughn had shown me. Spark was getting through to the timing light, where I checked #1, then 2, then 3, then 4. I removed 4 spark plugs and reinstalled 4 old ones, which Vaughn said were in perfect shape (3,000 miles). But that didn't make any difference.

I charged the battery. It was fully charged on fast charge, then I switched it to slow 2 amp trickle until it was fully charged.

Yesterday I ordered original style cables from Potomac Packard. Last night I changed the fuel filter, which was a little dirty. I replaced the coil. The ammeter needle wiggles when I push the starter. The timing light lights on #1. It was late, so I waited to start it this morning. The car does not start.

How can this be that hard?

There it is. I can take pix tonight after work if there's anything you want to see.




Joe

I had a spare set of points which had no adjustment hole, just 1 for attaching.

It's been quite a while since I've been able to source the Autolite points for a 356 with the right-angle dogleg for the eccentric screw. But the available set that just has the single hole for the hold-down screw works just fine, installed many sets w/o problems. Just from memory the point set is CS721A.

Using a factory photo to show where #1 plug wire goes can be misleading as the distributor can be reinerted in any position and still function so long as the wires are rotated around to match. Setting the #1 piston on TDC on the compression stroke (not exhaust) is the classic way, just remove #1 plug and jog the starter until you feel the compression building and then stop at 6 deg. BTDC or whatever is called for. The enclosed just repeats this with a bit more detail.

Are you sure you don't have a short in the distributor, the primnary wiring tothe points grounded somewhere? How about the ground wire loop on the breaker plate? If it extends upward to far the spark can jump from the rotor tip to the ground wire and not make it to the plugs.

You're right, it's not that hard, pretty simple basic stuff. Keep us posted. Give me a phone call if you wish.

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Thanks, O-D,

Napa will have them at the local store in an hour.

Joe

Just a thought after you get it running again. An ignition breakup at road speeds can be the result of worn bushings in the distributor body, and/or a worn slip joint where the upper shaft (the part with the cam) attaches to the main distributor shaft. Most of then this wear occurs from failure to periodically put a couple of drops of oil on the felt wick beneath the rotor. You need to pull the distributor to check this properly. Wear of the busings in the body for the main shaft also comes generally from inadequate lubrication. There is an article on the PAC website about rebushing this particular distributor, pretty simple stuff, no special tools needed.

http://www.packardclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=860

There is also an article there on basic distributor maintenance.

I wonder if I can make the assumption, that if the #1 valve is up when I'm on the timing mark, it's not on the compression stroke.

When the valve is down, it is.

I could remove all the spark plugs again, all at one time this time, for the experience of turning the engine over with one hand by the fan and with the other hand with a finger over the #1 spark plug hole feeling for the compression, but I have my doubts I can do that.

Before I do that, I'm going to check the valve height through the #1 spark plug hole at the 7 o'clock and the 2o'clock positions (when the timing marks and pointer line up) and see if they are different. I'm going to assume when the valve is down, that's the compression stroke.

I advanced the engine to the damper marks. The rotor was the roughly 2 o'clock position. I measured the distance to the top of the valve through the spark plug hole with a swab and marked it.

I advanced the engine to the next revolution to get the damper marker. The rotor now pointed to roughly the 7 o'clock position. I marked the swab stick and the distance was less. So I concluded that the valve was open at the this position. This would not be the compression stroke.

I then knuckled under and removed all the plugs. Surprisingly I was able to rotate the engine by the fan counter clockwise approaching the damper marker. I could feel any difference between the 2 o'clock position and the 7 o'clock position holding my finger over the spark plug hole while turning the fan. I think it took too much energy, but I couldn't feel any compression.

Then I remembered I had a compression tester. I added the adapter and screwed it in. I used the starter to turn just past the 2 o'clock rotor position. No reading.

I did the same for the 7 o'clock position and got a reading.

The valve is maybe an intake valve, if it's open during the compression stroke? (which is what it is, at the 7 o'clock position.)

It still doesn't run, but I think 7 o'clock in #1, which is the way I have it set up.

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